Some new tour dates to tell you about. Long Beach, California. July 10. Los Angeles. July 11. Bethel, New York. July 31. Albany, New York on August 1. Las Vegas, Nevada. July 5 and 6th. Bangor, Maine. August 9. Bend, Oregon. Spokane, Portland, Maine, and Oregon. A lot of places. Go check them out@theovon.com. tour and thank you to anybody that's come out and support and seen the show and just can't even believe it. And I'll see you guys there. Baby. Praise God, baby. Gang. Today's guest is a documentarian, a journalist, an instigator of sorts. He has a new documentary that's trending right now on Netflix called tell them you love me. It's really fascinating if you haven't seen it. He's always splashing in the dark pools of society, and we're grateful for all his contributions over the years that have kept us entertained and intrigued and informed as well. Today's guest here from the United Kingdom is Mister Louis Theroux. I'll sit and tell you my story shine on me and I will find a song I've been singing.

I like your voice, man. I like your boys.

You do?

Yeah.

Oh, thanks, man.

I'd like to speak like that.

Well, I think. Well, it's interesting coming to London, because you see where it started at. Coming to London is very much like going and looking at the roots of America.

Yeah. And the english language. And you probably know this, but they say Shakespeare, if he were alive today, would speak like, kind of like an appellation.

He'd be a. I feel like he'd probably be a rapper or something now.

He'd probably be a rapper. He'd talk kind of like this.

Yeah, he'd be like wetter hose.

Because words like got, we say got, you say gotten in America. Or fall, we say autumn. Those are, you know. And Shakespeare, he talked kind of like. It's a lot of fun talking to you, Theo Vaughn. Cause I'm kind of a stand up comedian, too.

Oh, so he.

I make plays.

Yeah.

But there is different characters on stage talking and stuff.

Are you serious? William? That sounds really.

I love words. Yeah, it sounds weird talking to you. Like, it feels a little offensive. Like, I'm.

No, I don't think so. Well, I.

You can hear everything that's wrong with what I'm doing, but to me, it sounded perfect.

Well, it's funny. Cause people will, like, joke about a white accent. That's kind of country. But they don't. Like. They don't. But if you do it about a black accent, it seems like it gets offensive, you know?

Yeah, but I don't. This is. Okay, this doesn't. I don't use terms like, obviously, I don't use racial slurs, but I don't say white trash, for example. And that sounds like maybe pretty, but. Or I wouldn't use the term hillbilly. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think it's.

I don't feel like I.

Maybe.

Cause I came from a position of something, like a little bit of privilege in life, and it feels like you're looking down on people.

Yeah, well, I think it's like, in the past eight years, I would say, in the US, they made it so the only people they would make fun of anymore were kind of like poor white people or just white people kind of. So they kind of stuck themselves in this place.

Yes.

I think it's one of the reasons why podcasting has had a rise over the years, because it still kept us just freedom of, like, well, I'm not. I'll just. We'll talk about whatever we feel like. We'll try to just be our normal.

Selves and actually be loose and free. I used to, in the nineties, I worked with. Do you know who Michael Moore is? Documentary. Make it. So he was my mentor of a sort. Like, he gave me my first job on tv. I worked for a show called TV Nation in the mid nineties. It was on NBC, and then it was on Fox. But it felt like, because it was a very. It was a left wing, kind of politically engaged, but it felt like the one thing we were okay as we. As a collective on the show with making fun. With making fun of was kind of white southerners.

Yeah.

So it was like, oh, well, we're gonna channel all that into just making fun of Billy Joe and Billy Bob.

Yeah.

And I always slightly felt like maybe this isn't okay. You know what I mean? Like, the last acceptable taboo.

Right.

Making fun of the dumb crackers.

Yeah, dude, these damn dumb.

They don't know shit.

They're dumb. They're drinking gasoline.

Yeah.

Right. They're making lunch, doing donuts and driving.

Around thinking that's fun.

They're doing donuts in their sister's vagina. Yeah.

Mandy.

Scariest place to do one. But during, for some reason, there was, like, something in the past, like eight years when it hit that, that people started to kind of get fed up with it in a way, or they just wanted equality. They just want. It will make fun of everybody. Like, don't just, you know. And I think some of that came with, like, the Trump stuff. People thought that all Trump supporters were just, like, complete hill, you know, hillbillies, ignoramuses.

And I think you see that a little bit in some of the stuff Sacha Baron Cohen did.

Yeah.

You ever watch, like, Borat and Bruno and it felt like.

Felt mean to me. It felt a bit mean sometimes.

Yeah. When he was making fun of that, he takes. You remember this one? It's kind of. It's weird because sometimes you feel. It's funny. I feel. I don't. You know, I don't want to be. He's funny. And it felt a little bit like he was beating up on country folk.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think. I think as long as everybody's getting beaten up on, it seems good.

Yeah.

And that's, I think where I feel like things are kind of hedging back that way because there's nowhere else for them to go right now, man. You're. London is marvelous, bro.

Oh, you're welcome.

I didn't know. I didn't think. I really. I was always kind of against the British.

Like, come on, really?

Yeah. We're Polish. My father's from Nicaragua, but his father was from Poland, so my parents. My father, my grandfather met his wife in Nicaragua doing missionary work a long time ago.

So you're kind of Latin?

I'm polish, nicaraguan. That's kind of how I feel the most, I guess, because my father was very, like, you know, he would just talk in Spanish and drink small coffees and, you know, and probably think about, you know, dancing with women that weren't.

My mother during the lambada. Yes, the forbidden dance. But you were growing up in Covington, and it must have been like you were quite exotic in those terms, because that's a fairly, like, that's mainly white and a few black people. Right. To be nicaraguan. Wouldn't that count for being a bit like.

Well, yeah, it even starts with Ni, you know, so immediately we're getting kind of lumped in with the brothers.

You can pass, like, you look pretty white to me.

Yeah.

I feel weird saying that. Just saying that felt uncomfortable. Like I was sounding like David Duke or something.

No, I used to share a back fence with David Duke.

Did you?

Yeah, when he. His girlfriend, he dated the hottest chick that worked at our seafood restaurant.

Duke did. They said that was his people in, you know, who were part of the white nationalist movement and said that was his. Other than his racism and being a Nazi, like, his other big failing was that he had an eye for the ladies. He was always having trouble shagging the wrong person's.

Oh, yeah, I could see that. I thought you're gonna say he had a problem with seafood, but there's a lot of. Yeah. And he may be suffering from gout, you know.

Yeah, he's pretty old now.

It could be just racism built up in his joints, but as a neighbor, nice guy, that's all. Pretty. Pretty. Yeah. Like, we didn't see much. You know, we go to the gym sometimes, and sometimes he and I would lift weights, but at that.

Seriously.

Yeah, but at that.

But he's quite a bit older.

Yeah, yeah, he was older. This was probably 20 years ago. At that point. He was, you know, just kind of a. Still a healthy guy at the gym. But he wasn't yelling racist things are wearing, like, a racist shirt or anything.

No, his thing was he left the Klan to found the Naezen AaWp.

Oh, yeah.

You remember that?

Uh uh.

I mean, it might be before your time. National association for the Advancement of white people.

White people. Yeah.

His thing was like, you know, black people can do it. Why can't I? It's just the same thing. Civil rights. Yeah, civil rights from my people.

Yeah.

Was the accent all right? What are you hearing when I'm doing that?

Yeah, I'm hearing just like you just kind of, like, having, like, a country accent. Kind of.

What do you do? An english one?

All right, good day, friends.

Keep going.

All right. Oh, nice to see you today, miss.

Say. I grew up in Louisiana because it's hard when you're mixing. See, I grew up in Covington, Louisiana, and most of my. I met you could just say. Just talk about that.

Well, I grew up in Covington, Louisiana, sir, and I was just a wee fella there with my mom and me grandma.

Not too bad.

And she died. She had typhoid or she had, um, a black long. Yeah. Something. I don't know. I don't know how british to get.

Yeah.

So we ate a lot of, like, war meals. Every. A lot of the food here tastes like a lot of war meals. I feel like.

Yes. Which war? Like the second world war.

I'm not sure. I'll have to open.

Do you mean, like, check a reference? So, like, it would be delicious if you were in a war.

Yeah. Like, it feels like somebody, like, hurried you into a tent to eat. And this is what the chef had, the cook had.

You know, like, I'm half american. My dad's from Boston. Boston, Massachusetts. And so I feel a very divided loyalty, like, and I but at the same time, because I grew up mainly in south London, I would come to America to visit my relations. Many of them lived around Boston or on Cape Cod. We'd holiday on Cape Cod.

You know that.

Very nice. Yeah. How are you? That's how they would. How are you? That's a different american accent. Yeah, yeah, it's wicked. And so your american fan base is going to be like, what the fuck is he doing? But my point was that when they would have stereotypes about british people or english people, I would feel slightly offended because if you grow up in it, you don't notice, like, oh, the food's awful. Or the idea that english people will have bad teeth. And I was like, no, we don't. But actually, we kind of certainly did then. They're a little better now. But, yeah, I'm interested in what you see from the outside. So the food's not so good.

The food is not good. The food doesn't strike me. This is one thing I noticed. The women, the ladies, they seem to be neater women. They seem to have more ambiance about them, I think. And this is no disrespect to America or anything, America seems like a lot more kind of social media obsessed and like, kind of fake tit kind of obsessed. Whereas I feel like here some of the women just seem to have their own. More. Their own world to them.

Like, you have a girlfriend?

I don't have a girlfriend.

So you're out here, you know, down for whatever.

I'm not just, um, you know, just smashing any, you know, traipser or whatever people call you or whatever. Somebody was the term traipser. Somebody traipsing her by or whatever.

Okay.

Yeah. I'm not out here, like, touching people.

Or anything, but he said molesting.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not. Yeah, I mean, I'm doing everything legal. You do some legal work here?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

But you're out here thinking like, I'm.

Afraid I could meet a wife.

You could meet your future wife.

Yeah, I think I'm in the. I'm more to the place now where. Yeah, I would like to meet a wife, you know, so. But I just think.

Have you been out going out to clubs and bars?

No, no, I don't go to clubs. We went last. Jimmy Carr took us out the other night to the Chiltern.

Chiltern firehouse.

Chiltern firehouse.

That's high rolling.

It was fancy.

That's fancy. The drinks are. They're expensive, but they're very delicious.

Oh, and the lamps even had, they didn't have like the little clicker on the back on the cord, they had the actual. Right where you pull the.

Yeah, you know, like a little string.

Like a bona fide lamp. Yeah, like that tie. Like, it was like, you count for a lot.

Like a string. Some seems like a low bar for vote, like formality. I think the lamps had strings on them.

Well, I think reaching behind the little desk that it's on.

It was so fancy, that place. I didn't even have switches. They had lamps with little strings dangling off. Theme. Is it offensive I do that? We can cut that out. If you feel like your fans are gonna be like, why'd you get that limey on there? And he just rolled you?

No, I don't, I don't think so. I'll let you know if it feels weird. I think cuz we're talking about it, it's fine if somebody was being like. But I think that's something that happened in America. It was like, people were like, fuck you. You'll try and sell us your television programming, but you're all you. The only thing that's on it is you're only brave enough to make fun of us. Yeah, like you're not even artistic anymore. I think that's something that's happening happened a lot with like Hollywood is they become like fifth and 6th generation Hollywooders now. It's not, they're not as accepting of like people coming in and bringing in different ideas. It doesn't feel like a melting pot of ideas anymore. It feels like the people that originally came there and had the ideas, some of that's kind of dissipated just by like nepotism and stuff like that.

Sometimes an insular, insularity, they're in a bubble. I'll say, like, you know, because I came up as a, you know, from the outward appearances, being british. But then I got my break in America working for Michael Moore. And then I was doing story first. One of the first stories I did was about the Ku Klux Klan. And I was in.

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

Okay, zinc, Arkansas, the show that I did, or the phenomenon of the clan, or both.

I'm familiar with the one where's the part where that guy, you guys are at the house and they ask you if you're jewish? Or the guy trying to.

Okay, that was a different one because then it was like, it worked. So then that was also, that was, I was with the neo Nazis in California. But the first was a guy called Michael Lowe. He lived in Waco, Texas.

Oh, yeah.

And he said, no, sir. And it was the first time I found I encountered that southern thing of being called sir. But in a way that felt formal to the point of slightly unfriendly. Yes, sir. It's real nice. Come over here, sir. Like, it could have felt, like, polite, but it felt like distancing. You know what I mean? No, just like that. And he was showing me all his signs. And the sign, they were pretending not to be racist.

Oh, yeah, I've seen this, actually.

But they're in the Ku Klux Klan. So he's leaving out this stuff, and it says, and this is something, an atom we use for our Woltz ad sales, and it's called for the discriminating shopper. And it said, discriminating in red. And I go, but why does it say discriminating in red? It's just like that. Cause it kind of stands out. And I said, but does that mean you discriminate? He goes, no, sir. We do not discriminate. No, sir. And it was an odd thing. But my point. The point I was going to get to was that when those shows go out in the US, I'm thinking, like, I'm half american. Like, this isn't me making fun of american culture. But some people didn't see it that way. And I always felt, like, a very divided. And I did one. I had one where I went around Miami mega jail. Like, the big one of the biggest jails in the city.

Oh, in Dade county.

Yeah. Miami Dade. Yes. So you've seen this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar. I don't want you to think that I'm not familiar.

I appreciate it. So I thought was a good show. But then when it went out on Netflix, I guess most people, a lot of people liked it, but some of the comments were, like, from people, I think, black people, who are like, why is this white british guy going in? Kind of making us look bad? Which. It's a valid response, but it's definitely not how it was intended. So I'm conscious of that feeling of being insider, but outsider as well.

Yeah, you know, it's fine. I was thinking about that. I was like, I wonder what it feels like, because once you kind of, as somebody who's coming to look at something and explore it and see how you can be a filter or, like, a kaleidoscope for the other people behind you that are gonna watch it, what is that? Is it tough? Like, at a certain point, do you become a bit of a jaded kaleidoscope. Do you become like a. Do you like. Yeah. How does your funnel change over time just because of doing it more and more and because it garner also there's, it garners esteem. And so that's, it's, it's just interesting how the different, how different factors can start.

I think the best thing that, the best thing that's happened to me is that I'm not that well known in America. And, you know, it's changed a little bit for various reasons. So I have a little bit of a profile, but I think the fact that I can go in where if I did a documentary in the UK, I'd be pretty well known.

Yeah.

And it's fine. You can still do it. In some ways, it generates more goodwill because they're like, oh, we like Louis, we'll let him in. And then off camera you're maybe doing selfies and whatnot, which is fine, although it kind of eats into your time a bit. And you think, I'm supposed to be a serious journalist, slightly flying under the radar, and here I am doing selfies at a riot. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I really need to be filming this right now. So. Sorry, someone's being arrested over there. Oh, just a quick selfie. Come on, mate. And then in America, however, I'm just, I'm going around Miami jail. No one's going to ask me for a selfie there. Do you know what I mean? And I love that part. And I never get jaded as long as I feel I'm meeting new people. The only times where I felt like the dynamic changes is if I go back and do a follow up a couple of times. So I did a story about the Westboro Baptist church.

Yeah, I'm familiar. That's in Louisiana, right?

It's in. It's in Kansas. Topeka. Topeka, Kansas. The capital.

We have a branch in Louisiana.

I don't think so.

Really?

Yeah. They don't really do branches. It's really just a one. A one stop shop.

Oh, yeah.

Unless there's obviously crazy. I use the term crazy advisedly. But there's other outfits, there's strange churches. But with Westboro, there's only. As far as I'm aware, there's only ever been one of the guys left and moved to Louisiana. I wonder if that's what you thought.

They had a Ford operating base or something in Louisiana.

Maybe like a little beachhead. Yeah, like a. Yeah, let's deploy from here. They. So when I went back, you know, did the first one, like, hello. Like, how does it work? Like, nice to meet you. So you carry these signs. What's that all about? And then you made the program, and then I went and made a follow up. And when you go back, they kind of have your number. And I don't mean number as in, like, they know you're a prankster or making fun of them. It's more like they just know who you are.

Right.

So they don't put up with any nonsense and you know who they are. So the point that the word you used was jaded. You get a little jaded and that creates a different energy. So you are sort of saying, come on, just stop it. It's racist or it's homophobic, it's anti semitic. And you just cut to the chase quicker, which, you know, you have no camouflage, so it doesn't make it impossible to do work. And so as long as I'm on a new story, even if it's a related story to some, like, if you put me in a prison in the US tomorrow, I'd be a very happy person.

Wow. So you like that? Sort of. You like being the princess and the pee. You like being the pee under the mattress? Kind of, yeah.

Yeah, kind of. I'm working with that metaphor. I'm waiting for it to make sense, but yes. Like, I. Maybe I'm the princess in the sense that I love that fairy tale, by the way.

Yeah.

You remember how it works? Like, she's. She stops the night and she says, I'm a princess. And they say, we don't believe you. And they say, here's how you test. And they don't say anything to her. They say, get a pde. Am I. Do you remember how. And they put, like a hundred mattresses.

They put all the mattresses like, a ton.

And the next one, they say, how did you sleep? They said, I slept terrible. And then what? I was tossing and turning all night because the one pee. But the point is. A point about, oh, she really was a princess because she could feel a pee. I mean, she sounds kind of like a nightmare, right?

Yeah. Well, I grew up. Yeah, I definitely. I used to have those buzzer underwear that would shock you if you peed.

I heard about that.

But it didn't shock you.

Just buzzed.

Surely it was pretty strong, the voltage we got.

You went through a lot growing up.

We got a pretty high voltage package. I think my mom wanted me to fucking feel it. Yeah, I got them for Christmas. It was a gift. I remember and it was kind of fun because you would be able to, like, just sprinkle some water on them and turn them on, you know? And so my brother would be like, do the thing, you know, and I would do it. But, um.

Do they still sell those?

Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know.

Need to look into that.

I think having the electricity and the urine in the pool of urine was a bad. It was a very eighties, nineties thing. But. No, I meant you're like. You're the pea, actually, that gets put in. Like, you're the thing that has an effect on the.

I see, yeah, yeah, I've got the distorting effect of being. Of mixing things up and. And, yeah, I very much. I do. I do like that. I. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about it.

Like, what is. How does it. How did that ever start for. Start in you that you desired, like.

Okay, I like invisibility and I'm an anxious person. And because I grew up always worrying about things, I found if I was talking to someone who seemed off beam or just in any way, like, their mind worked differently, like, I was. Maybe all kids are like this, but I was the kid who, if there was a homeless person with his mouth open and I was like, five or six years old, I'd be like, what's going on with that, mom? Why has that man got his mouth open? What? Mumdeen? And they. Things you're not supposed to talk about, don't talk about it. Or if you read about just weird stuff happening, like guys falling asleep and kind of getting. And then burning to death because they were in the sun and they were wearing too much sun oil. And it's like, what does that feel like? I was just kind of. I think there were aspects of life that felt so strange. It took me out of myself and whatever. Inner voices of anxiety and disquiet, I had a. They were silenced. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

So if you're on location, you're going and talking to someone who, like, the first story I ever did was for Michael Moore and it was called millennium. And it was about people who think the end of the world is about to happen. And my main anxiety was, I'm gonna be terrible at being on tv. Right. I just didn't think I had whatever that gift is like. I was very nervous. I thought, yeah, I know. I always think I know at least five people who are way. Who would be way better at this than me. Like, my best friends were all really funny people I grew up with who went on to be comedians and talented performers, right? And I'm thinking I'm the least funny one in my friendship group, and yet I was 23 years old and I'd been given this break, and the only thing I had that I was clinging on to that I thought, but I'm gonna take this opportunity of being a network, being a correspondent on this new show, because I wanna meet these people who are part of these crazy cults who think the world is about to end.

I just thought, that does sound like, that sounds fascinating, and I will enjoy that part of it. And maybe in enjoying speaking to them, they'll get some usable footage. And that was really the launchpad. Like, was the fact that I just want to know, like, why do you think that? Like, what part of you, you know, like, when is it gonna all happen? When is Jesus coming back? And what will he be wearing? And is that a Tuesday or a Wednesday? And the concrete detail or the UFO? There were four different groups, and there was a UFO group. They were landing in southern California that the. The spaceships were going to land in 2001. And then there was a group in western Montana who were a part of a neo nazi outfit who wore little nazi uniforms. And remember, it was day three. First two days, it went terrible. It went terrible. Like, I thought, with the neo Nazis, you mean? No, day one was Harold camping. He was a fundamentalist Christian. He talked like this, and then Jesus is going to come back. See?

Yeah.

And then day two was. It was a UFO group, and they were all kind of touchy feeling like, we're not preaching doom and gloom, we're not fearful at all. But it was kind of like they kept talk. Like, I just didn't feel like I was clicking with them, like, they talked too much, basically, and I was too polite and scared to interrupt. But then, day three, the Nazis, bizarrely, were the most polite and the most sort of emotionally available. Does that make sense? So they were just. I think they were just so lonely and so bored living like two guys living in a trailer in western Montana. Oh, yeah, the me arriving, and they're like, come on in. So great to have you. You know, there's a lot of truth in the prophecies that are written up in Star wars, the movie Star wars. And what about Star Trek? Star Trek's another one. A lot of truth in that. Different planets for different races.

Yeah.

And I thought, like, I was. I didn't want to talk too much about myself because I thought they'd probably assume I was jewish, because a lot of people assume I'm jewish. And I thought that would lead to an interesting dynamic. And it was just really striking how they were just thrilled to be telling the good news about different races going to different planets and how there was this neo nazi cosmic vision. And I would just sort of go like, wow, that's fascinating. Tell me more. And in the ambience of kind of weird, I don't want to say friendship, but this sort of weird feeling of warmth that infused the room and the ludicrousness of what they were saying, I thought, okay, I can do this. Like, I can do my job. This is funny and interesting and that's cool, man. And I thought that was it. I can. Now, not only did I think I've got this, I thought, like, I'm one of the greatest tv performers of all time. You know what I mean? It went like that. I was like, this isn't a segment. This is a feature film. And in fact, Michael Moore better watch out because I'm hot on his tail.

I'm way bigger than that.

Yeah. Oh, it's wild.

Three days. Of course I'm too big for this.

What's so wild? How your ego will. Will kind of be the thing that coerces you, that tickles you enough and prods you enough to even get on stage. And the second you open your mouth, then it jumps right in front of you and I fucking thinks you're Katy Perry or somebody or beneath Arnold or whatever.

Yeah, I don't have a middle range. Like, I'm either this is a disaster or I smashed it.

Same.

That's probably pretty normal.

Yeah, I think that's pretty. I think it's, you know, I go to like twelve step recovery and they all do.

You.

There's a term in there, it's always like, I'm a egomaniac with an inferiority complex. That's a big term that people say in their.

It's terrible when you say something about, you think it's unique. And it turns out not only is it not unique, like it's a cliche, like, my personality type is actually a cliche. That's kind of disappointing.

But then pretty chill.

It seems that's when you realize maybe we are all already AI's, you know, like we are in a sim. Well, I think there's nothing original about me or you. Maybe you, but not me.

Well, that's not very fair to put it on me since you made it so sullen. But I will say this dude. One time, Joe Rogan said, I was talking with him, and I'm not name dropping. I know you've been over there before. And he said, you know, there's. There's many of us out there. There's like, there's like seven Theo Vaughn's, there's like 27 Louis Theroux. There's like a whole mat. There's like. There's just happening at the same. And I don't know if I believe.

And one of them is asian, and a couple of them are probably in Africa, which is crazy to think about, right?

Yeah, it is. But I don't know if I believe that, because it takes away some of your own, like, sense of being value to yourself, you know?

That was one of the reasons why I've never said this before, I don't think. But when I went to America, I felt able to be on tv because I thought, well, there's not many people like me here, you know, and I could be the british guy, whereas in the UK, and certainly in London, I feel like there's hundreds of guys who are just like me.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Whereas you actually. You carved a path for yourself surrounded by people who are somewhat. Probably somewhat similar. There's other versions of you out there, but you're the best. You must be the best one because you rose to the top.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know sometimes why I've been, like, had success in this business or been fortunate. Like, I just hated not having a lot of opportunity. I felt like. And then when podcasting came along, it felt like you could just do what you. You could just be yourself, you know, that's what felt. And it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I've been, like, a slow evolver in life. I'm kind of a slow learner and, like, a late evolver, kind of. And so are you still fasting?

No, because I. You were fasting for a time?

Oh, yeah. I fasted for a time. I almost bit into a damn employee. At a best buy. Yeah.

Or Costco.

It was best buy. I don't go to Costco.

Why not?

I don't know.

Is there a difference?

I don't like seeing that much food at once because.

Just too tempting.

No. Makes me feel sad.

Have you been to Aldi since I've been here?

Aldi, the supermarket? No.

Everything's cheap. You can't spend more than 50 pounds if you try, it's wild, because you need self checkout. So you have a little plastic bin, and it's a discount retailer, but you, you. You don't. You can't. You don't get a whole cart, like a trolley. Like, you have to pull down a little plastic thing around. And then when you get to, you check out and, you know, you do the self checkout, but the barcodes are really big, so it's not too difficult. Is this making sense?

Yeah, 100%.

Because if you self checkout, you don't want to be fussing with the tiny barcode. You pass it right five times. It's driving you insane. Right. But the big. And then the bin is not that big. It's pretty big. But you pile it up, and then I. You could get as much in there as possible, and it's like 50 pounds.

Oh, wow.

It's wild. I mean, it's not wild, but you save. So if you're. If you're thrifty as I am, you save a lot of money.

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Interesting.

And it's not a judgment against american women, but it's just something that I noticed. It just seems like they have their own things going on. I think in America, sometimes it feels like a lot. We've created this space where women have to feel, like, this desperation to be seen on social media sometimes. And I don't know if I feel that here. And I'm not even saying that. I'm not judging the women. I'm just saying that that's a. That's just something that I kind of feel like we've created in the states more.

But you live in Nashville, which is his own culture and its own milieu, right?

Yeah, it's quiet. It's like families.

A lot of country and western music.

Yeah, a lot of country western music. It's fine.

Why not New York or LA?

I lived in LA for a bit.

It was too much.

It just. It stayed closed during the pandemic, and Nashville was open, and I didn't want to start paying the taxes in LA and have to. And have it be closed. And so I was like, I'm going to move to a place that's open.

Is there a big opioid and heroin.

Problem in Nashville in all of America? There is now.

I did a story in Huntington, West Virginia, and it was. It was. It was. We called it heroin town, and it was one of those places you just arrived. Nicest, friendliest people, and just a terrible, terrible. I know it might be better now, but back then, it was about four years ago, five years ago, a lot.

Of people sleeping and walking, kind of.

Sleepwalking, a lot of people dying on the streets. And then they get. They get narcanned, and then they pop back to life, and they're mainly just annoyed because they're like, I was enjoying that, you know?

Oh. Cause you brought. Oh, they were enjoying that.

They knocked the opioids off their I receptors, and then they're like, what you do that for? Yeah.

Damn it. Let me ride. Yeah, let me ride again. It's almost like it's really become the new bull riding.

It's like. I thought you would say bungee jumping, but, yes, it's like. And then. And then someone like, if you. Excuse me, sir. Have you taken anything? And like. No.

Yeah.

And they just can't keep that.

Like, I'm just praying. Let me pray for a second.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's wild. Well, one of the things that really. This is where I think.

Fine, would you stop? It's really strange.

Well, one of the things that started, they didn't even prosecute that family that did the opioid epidemic.

Yeah, the secular family.

That's fucking.

But they sued them. They got a civil suit. But they.

What does that mean? They're fucking riding around and eating banana pudding or whatever while people are dying in the fucking. They even hit a speed bump. And they're like, driver, be careful. And like, that's an opioid, man, that we hit. You did it. You know, it's like. And once. That's. That's one of the things that's really started to make people in America be like, there's nobody looking out for us anymore. That was a huge part of it, I think.

I bet that book, by the way, empire of pain.

I haven't read that.

Patrick Raden Keef, brilliant book about how they started making certain, you know, kind of medical company, three brothers and then the dynasty, how they created various drugs, each of them in different ways problematic, like, with side effects. And then. And then the mother of all terrible drugs, which was the oxy's and whatever. And a lot of them live in stard now, apparently, you know, stard in Switzerland. Like, it's a playground of the. Of the wealthy.

Of the wealthy that are hiding from.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

That'd be a good documentary.

Yeah. If you could get in there, they'd probably don't want to speak. And then it must be tougher. The museums are all having to give the money back and take down, you know, because they made all these donations.

Right.

But it's. It's. I think you're right. I think the sense of betrayal and the way in which. The way in which it was cynically rolled out and the way in which doctors were induced to over prescribe and legislators were persuaded.

Yeah. That's unfortunate.

Sales reps were all incentivized to make inappropriate sales. I mean, everyone knows this now, but.

Yeah.

It was way worse than the pandemic. Right. In terms of, like, the loss of life.

Unbelievably worse. And to think that it was. Yeah. To think that it didn't even hit that big of a crescendo.

I've never taken it.

Yeah.

Have you?

I've never taken it, I'm afraid.

Fentanyl.

Yeah.

Got that good fentanyl.

God, they got it. That Fenny, they call it. Is it that fenty? People just.

Yeah, just lay there and then. Car fentanyl. It's like, each one. You know about car fentanyl? That's the elephant tranquilizer. It's nothing. It's 100 times stronger 100 times what? Than fentanyl. And fentanyl, if you touch it, you can overdose.

Yeah.

You don't even have to take it. And so police officers are bagging it up and then keeling over saying, this is the best day of my life. It's a sad. That's awful. And then. Or inhaling it. Right. When they used to break into meth labs, and then there was like, the officers were getting a. During keeling over because they weren't wearing gas masks. You remember all of that?

Some of them weren't doing it on purpose. I bet after that first day. Yeah. I'm leaving this at home. I'll be back.

You leave this one for me. I'll bag it up. You get on with the next hit. Yeah, no, it's. It's awful. That carp and then car fentanyl a hundred times. It might be ten times. You have a guy who can Google. Have you got a Google guy like Joe does?

He can do it, right?

Google it.

He's an import.

Who's Joe's? Joe's Google. Jamie, get Jamie. Jamie. Can you check that?

Yeah. Can you bring that up? Dude, black people in wishing wells. Is that what you were looking for? He's always got.

The Carfentanil is like. I think it's a hundred times stronger.

That's. It's like, what are we doing? How could we? Yeah, I think at that point, people were like, no. And so that when. After that happened and then Covid happened, that's one of the huge reasons nobody trusted any of the pharmaceutical industry, because everybody just seen. I have four friends that died from fentanyl. Right.

Seriously?

Swear to God. Absolutely.

Deceased people you grew up with off.

The face of the earth. Some from adulthood, but some from childhood, right. Gone. That's just me. And I don't even run in those circles, so I can't even. So once Covid happened, and then it became like, oh, we're gonna trust a pharmaceutical fuck. No. That's where a lot of America was. I think a lot of people don't have talk about that, but to me, that was a huge link. That's wild car fentanyl.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. You shouldn't be in a car. First of all, if you're in a.

Car, it's nothing to do with being in a car, right? It's called car fentanyl.

Well, then that's a strange name.

It is a strange fentanyl.

Okay, fair.

Give me that. Yeah, but, yeah, yeah. It's so strong. It's for cars. No, it isn't that.

God damn. I saw. I just saw a couple tow trucks doing.

Yeah, that's not what it is. Yeah, it's for elephants. They should call it something else. It's confusing. Oh, it's wild, though, dude.

But, yeah.

Can I ask? Is it. Because this isn't intrusive, so you must feel. But you're in the fellowship. Are you allowed to talk about that?

Yeah. I mean, I was on. Cocaine was my deal. Yeah, I liked a little bit of cocaine and. Yeah, I liked cocaine. You know, like, if you would have some cocaine, then I would have some. Hopefully.

If I had some now, what would you say?

I would say, we'll take a break, boys.

No, because you're in recovery.

In recovery. No, I would say. I would look at it. I'd make sure it's cocaine.

Right.

And then I'd probably hand it back to you.

Yeah.

And then a few minutes later, though, here's what I would do. A few minutes later, I'd say, let me look at it again.

How long are you clean? What's the term? How many days clean are you?

Two years.

Congrats.

Yeah. Thanks, man. I had a couple years and then went out and it is what it is, you know? But I never had a drinking problem. I just had a cocaine problem.

Right.

Did you ever struggle with anything?

I mean, if you go by what the guidebooks tell you, I probably drink too much. I drink more than you're supposed to. They say 20. Is it 21, 20 beers a week? 21 units or 28? It doesn't seem. It doesn't seem like very many. You know what I mean?

I mean, that's the first thing that a guy who has a problem says. No, but come on, that's like, 21 beers a week.

Yeah. That isn't 21 beers a week. That would be a good week for me.

Okay, then that's a good. That would be. Maybe if England was playing in there.

No, but as in, like, that would be low. Like, in other words, I'll be like, oh, wow, I had a great. I think. I don't want to characterize it. Like, I don't. Okay. I'm sounding defensive. Check in with myself. No, I like to have a drink, you know? And I feel like I find it relaxes me.

Sir, we're gonna need to see your license and registration. That's what I'm asking you for, sir. Okay, I understand.

You don't drive. Never drive while you know.

No, I think. And it's more the culture in the UK. It's way more of the culture.

Yeah.

Is the drunkest thing I'd ever seen in my life. I couldn't believe.

Did you do some shows over there?

Yeah.

Did you have any guests? Were you doing podcast shows?

Um, nope. No. It was too much work, too much quickly moving.

They like a drink. We like it. Scotland. They like a drink. England. And there's. It's. What is. What do we say about it? My wife says I drink too much.

Good. I disagree, but they have to say that.

Yeah.

They're taught to say that as soon as they're born.

Do you think so?

Your husband's gonna drink too much.

You tell her, I think she eats too many crisps.

Well, I think it's very chips. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

But I would never dream of saying that to her.

No, she knows I think it every now and then.

You can't say that.

Why?

Is she allowed to say, you drink too much, but I can't say, I think you eat too many crisps? I gonna. Everyone. All the women are gonna be like, I used to like him, and now I don't like him.

No, the women love you. Any woman. I've mentioned you to that.

Oh, I appreciate that. But then they'll feel like he's coercive. He's trying to stop Nancy from eating those chips. What's his problem with Nancy eating chips? I think it's, as you get older, do you find that you speak, like, women's language a little better? Like, I feel like I understand, like.

You'Re more empathetic with women.

Just there's certain things, you know, that you just. You don't ever say, um, you just should never say 100% do. Do you definitely want to eat that? Just never say that.

You should not even look at a piece of their food.

No. Look surprised or be, like, seconds. Wow, really?

Yeah.

Never do that. Also, if they say, do I look good in this or in this? You say, you look amazing in both.

Yeah.

Right. You know all this.

Oh, yeah. Well, I think as you get older, you just become. If you look at a senior citizen, most of them could be a man or a woman. They often evolve into the same haircut. Your.

Your gender really doesn't seem that old. Are you imagining my wife and thinking that she looks like a senior citizen?

No.

Is that where your mind went?

You seem healthy, and your wife looks hard in my imagination. I do want to let you know that. Okay.

Not. But not. Is she nothing.

Nothing crazy? No, no, she's very. Well, she's working at a library. Okay. Yeah.

I did an AI. Like, I did it. I wanted to do an anniversary present in a couple of weeks. I can't remember how many years it is because it's been so magical. That didn't make any sense. But my point is, I thought, I'm going to do. It'll be funny if I do an AI picture of me and Nancy having a wonderful time together, celebrating our anniversary. You can put that into AI now. Right. And it'll make an amazing picture. But sometimes it's so over the top, it looks great. Kind of funny.

Yeah.

So Louis and Nancy having a romantic meal to celebrate their anniversary. And it was Louis Theroux. So there was a guy who popped up in the picture and his beautiful wife, Nancy. The guy looked like me, but she looked like a, like a 70 year old librarian. And I kept having to fiddle the search terms to make her heart like his much younger, very attractive wife, Nancy. But I couldn't meet, I couldn't seem to get the AI to make her attractive.

Yeah.

So I ended up just putting in live Tyler look alike.

Oh, let's get strong.

And that did it.

I bummed a cigarette off her one night.

Did you?

Yeah.

She seems like a nice person.

She was very nice. She gave me, I think she was. Yeah. She gave me half of a menthol cigarette and I was like, yeah, I kept it. I didn't smoke. I took a couple hits off of it, then I put it out. Yeah. I really. I thought that was nice of her.

It's funny how you can, you can tell a lot. I. Maybe not that, but, you know, little encounters with people, chips passing in the night, and that was enough.

You get a sense.

Yeah.

You get a little bit of a sense.

It's funny that she smokes menthol, though.

It shocked me.

But first time I smoked a menthol, it's like this tastes like it's good for me.

Oh, yeah. That's that kind of mint sort of refreshing. Tastes like you just had washed under your arms. You're like, God, that's strong. Well, I could see a lot of black guys would smoke them when I was growing up. Yeah.

But according to legend, according to legende.

I'll tell you straight up, Terry was smoking the mitches do. When I met him, a lot of the brothers would smoke him. Yeah. Because they wanted a stronger cigarette. I think black people are just a. They can, they're strong. They're just a tougher ilk.

But they haven't. They banned. I'm not touching that, by the way, menthol. Haven't they banned menthol or not?

I don't know if they banned it or not, but people are still doing it, unfortunately. And a lot of jet, a lot of redheads will smoke them, too. So when you see, that's sort of the, you know, if you look along the. I mean, yeah, redheads are kind of exotic, I would say, you know, look.

In the Bible, but kind of.

Yeah, yeah, there's no redheads in the Bible.

For real.

So have you really checked that 100%? Will you run that up? How many gingers are in the Bible? And also, so obviously they're man made of, I think that's safe to say.

Right. Engineered.

Yeah.

That's interesting. I feel like, I was just gonna say, like, I feel like this is a good conversation, but I also feel like I've talked a lot about kind of stereotypical gender stuff, and I feel like people might think, oh, he's made all those programs, and he's been to incredible places, and, like, that's what he's.

Learned is, I think, where they think we're just joking around, having fun. I think that's what they think. Yeah, 100%. That's what I think. And. But I think there's also snippets of reality. I think when you talk with people like guys who are creatives like yourself, there's, I think even you probably surprise yourself sometimes with what's reality, maybe at times. And what's your imagination and the little bit of both, maybe. I don't know.

I don't know. My thing is, I'd like to feel like I'm wise, and I'd like to feel like I've gone through life and I figured something out, and I've been to extraordinary places and delved deep into human psychology, and I've arrived with some elder wisdom, but I haven't.

But I think people have respect that you're on the journey, no doubt.

Yes, I'm still on the journey.

I think a lot of people see that. If they pitch you, they pitch you on the side of the himalayas with a backpack on.

Thank you. And I think part of my gift, if I may put it like that, you've really seen some of my programs. That's a thrill. Where would you have seen them? I don't know.

I watched a new documentary, which I do want to talk about.

You should shout that out.

I want to talk about that.

Yeah, I'm not in that one. That one's. I'm executive producer of that one. If it's the one I'm thinking of, we. Tell them you love me.

Tell them you love me. Oh, it was great.

It's. I mean, it's dark.

It was fat. I did not see some of the turn that it took.

It's extraordinary.

Yeah.

Can I set it up very briefly?

That's all I was gonna ask you. No, because I want people to go watch it because it really was good.

Netflix. Yep.

It really was good.

It's like a true crime kind of psychology. Psychological thriller drama.

You will love it. If you like true crime type of stuff, I think you will absolutely love this.

In a twisty tourney. I can't believe what I'm watching kind of a way. It's about a philosophy professor and a very disabled young black guy who's a nonverbal and has always been assumed to have a cognitive. Significant cognitive impairment. And she's a philosophy professor, and she starts working with him and appears to unlock all kinds of special abilities. And his family, the young guy, Derek, his family is obviously thrilled. He starts going to college. He's having philosophical conversations with her. I don't know if he's writing poetry, but he sort of writing essays. And they have this meeting of minds, and according to her version, they fall in love, and they strike up a physical relationship. But then questions start being raised about the nature of the technique that she's using to open up his abilities, his alleged abilities. And then the abilities come under question. And his family, Derek's family feeling, actually, he doesn't have the special abilities. And this isn't a thrilling story about love across the divide. It's actually abuse. And she gets prosecuted and sent to prison. So all the way along, you're trying to figure out what really happened.

It's on. Yeah, it blew my mind. Cause there's so many little things. Well, and one of the things that you have to know, or that helps to know if you're a listener, is that one of the ways she. That the teacher, Anna Stubblefield is her name, that she would help Derek, because he basically, at first, you see him, or you think of him, and you think there's not a real him in there.

Well, there's a. There's a.

Well, I don't want to say that, but my people, my. Listen. No, I don't know. I'm trying my best, but when you look at him, there's a him in there, but you don't know how much of him there is. And it's hard for us to see. A lot of times the person that is inside sometimes of a person that has a severe. Your physical disability.

Yeah, he's there, but he's. And he just got a profound disability. And that's. You don't know the nature of what it's capable of.

Right. And, and she starts, she starts teaching. He. She starts becoming. She. The facilitate the way they. That they start to communicate.

It's called facilitating facilitated communication. In essence, what happens is she's called Anna. Anna. I can't get you saying Anna, but that's how she says it, so. And Derek's mum's called Daisy, and it becomes almost a custody battle between them. And the first inkling that something's wrong is that Anna starts saying, like, daisy will put some meat and potatoes down, and. And Anna will go like, well, Derek really doesn't like meat. He's a vegetarian. And his mom's like, what? And he doesn't listen. And she'll put gospel music on. They're from a churchy family. And Anna goes like, derek doesn't really like gospel. He prefers classical, and he drinks red wine and he prefers cabernet and all these sort of markers of what might be construed as sort of elite or slightly refined.

I. Oh, I need to think about.

Yeah, so there's a sort of class thing, like, and so days, like, what, gospel's not good enough for him anymore? Like, she's, she feels offended. Like the son that she's always known is being, is being kind of taken away from her, right. And it's almost like a power play. Like, I know him better than. I'm not saying that as me, but.

That'S certainly how we come across to a mother, and especially, I think, also a black mother who's like, who's.

Yeah, yo, he's not gonna eat my cookie, right? Because he's a vegetarian. Like, he only eats nut cutlets now.

Yeah, yeah. He only eats like, shortbreads or whatever.

He needs corn and you, like, I'm not trying to mischaracterize.

Not at all. We're joking around. He only has a booyah base or whatever.

Yeah, he was a vegetarian, and that's.

Insane, first of all.

Yeah.

To say that a black eyes a vegetarian is absolutely. Nobody's gonna believe that. Dude, name 70 black vegetarians, dude. Okay, maybe Arthur Ashe was one, but that's it. Nobody's buying that shit. So out of the gate, the mom is like, hmm. You know, so. But I.

That's where it starts. There's a glitch, and then it spins out and then when she says, and then they have the moment where they announce to Daisy and, and to Derek's brother John that they're having a relationship. And they sit down and, and it's Anna and Derek sit down with John and Daisy and say, like, I don't know. I think they might have been excited to break the news, of course, but it's a sensitive thing saying, like, not only are we, because they weren't saying, do we have, I'd like, permission to ask for your son's hand in marriage? It wasn't like that was like, by the way, we're doing it.

Like, we're already, they said we've been shagging a bit.

Yes, basically.

And we're in love, basically.

I don't think they used the term shaggy, but it was along those lines.

Yeah.

And I think it felt to Daisy and John, like, they still had a protective, because the kids, he's not a kid, he's a young man. The young man is vulnerable. Right. So they don't know, like, and also they don't want to think about him.

Sexual, probably.

Yeah. Having adventurous sexual relations, like, with, with the woman who's basically got a caretaking role.

Right.

It's a professional relationship. It's a complicated power dynamic. So the brother John, he's so shocked. He goes and throws up. He's like, he cuts him to the, like, to the soul. Like, he feels so confused and befuddled by, by the relationship. I mean, a lot of it is just also the awkwardness of, you know, the bigger conversation is a race. Well, I was going to say disability.

Oh, okay.

Is that people who are very disabled. I say very, but people who have, who can't walk and in fact, maybe can't actually feed themselves or who have, who need round the clock assistance with day to day life and may have, like, cognitive, really, like real cognitive delays, like, where they seem to be incapable. You know, they'll watch cartoons and enjoy life, but they're not going to be reading books and stuff. A lot of people don't want to think about the sexual relations. It's almost like they, they're infantilized and it's seen as inappropriate that they have sexual desires.

Right.

But they do. They could. Of course they do, because they full grown people. Right.

Yeah.

They're going to be obvious.

And especially, well, one of the things you have to let people know too, I think, is the way that Anna, or Anna would communicate. She, there's like this sort of typewriter type of contraption. It's almost like like a first typewriter, you would give a child to learn to do typing on a speaking spell. Yeah, like a speak and spell. And she would kind of guide his hand or hold his hand because his hand would often kind of vibrate a lot. So she would hold his hand as he would write out the different things he wanted to say. So right there. It's just such a. Like, who is the right. Who is.

Yeah.

Is it mostly him? Is she guiding based on things she wants? Is she even unknowingly guiding based on things that she may want because there's desires inside of us?

So the allegation, the contention by the skeptics would be that because she had long conversations with him using that technique, a little like a Ouija board would be the other analogy. If you wanted to say that it was dubious and non scientific, but the allegation would be that she was, in essence, having long conversations with herself and producing her ideal love partner. Like someone who likes all the same thing. You know what I mean?

Like a fan fiction, almost writing her own fan fiction or something, creating.

And, you know, I'll leave it to people because it's sort of. Viewers could go on the journey and figure out what they think happened. But one version of events is that she was projecting a kind of idealized version and using Derek almost as a.

Prop, like a geppetto in a Pinocchio type.

She was puppeteering. Yeah. A real life human used as a prop.

But then it's so strange, right? And certainly possible, for sure. It feels so strange to want to go spend all that time with someone.

Oh, I should shout. I need to mention the direction. Nick August Perner, who did a brilliant job.

It's great.

Yeah, he's. He's terrific. And as much as I'm taking, I'm here talking about it. I was exactly an executive producer on it. But it was. It's his. His project. He did it.

Bring him up. Nick Orcus Parner.

Nick August Parner.

August. Let's get a video picture of the man. There we go.

There he is. Google's there.

He.

What a handsome man. Look at his eyes. Why would I look like that?

Is he Bangladeshi, you think?

I think he. I don't know his. I know. I never asked. I don't think August Perna sounds like a bangladeshi name, but I love that he's got beautiful swarthy skin and piercing blue eyes and a thick beard. I used to have a beard like that and then I got alopecia.

Did you really?

Yeah, my beard fell out.

Oh, my God.

And my hair's gone thin. I have patches in my hair. That's an exclusive. I've never spoken about that on a.

Podcast about having alopecia.

Yeah.

And is it a real thing you have to deal with all the time?

Well, it's always there. It's there when I look in the mirror. And if I touch my hair, I used to feel kind of thick, lustrous locks, like, gorgeous. Just enjoyable. Like, a bit like your hair.

It's thin, though.

It starts to get thin, and then. And then little holes appear. Can you see that? And my bearden, it's coming back, but it's white. I feel like one of those guys who's seen a ghost, and their hair goes white and falls out.

Oh. Oh, yeah. That sounds very like a Scooby doo. Yet. Does it stress you out, or do you care that much? You already have a family. You have a wife.

Already care. Because I think my wife cares. The last thing I need is to be even less attractive to her.

Yeah. Have another crisp Lindsey or whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Nancy. Like, he's coercive. She doesn't sound like that. He's coercive. And he's almost bald. He's got patches in his hair. You need to leave him. He's. He's no good for you. Right.

You know, and that's your daughter saying that. Exactly.

He's no good for you. Your friend, your wife's friends. You've got that to look forward to. Is like, the toxic friend.

Yeah.

You're too good for him.

Oh, yeah. My every girlfriend I've ever had has had that friend, for sure. And they were right.

They were right. She is too good for me.

You're all too good for us. When you really, when it really comes.

Down to so much better looking than I am. Oh, and I'm pitting so. But I was on tv when I met her, so it was adjusted. It was adjusted for celebrity.

It happens. You know what one thing that I thought was interesting about, about tell them you love me. Is that right?

Yeah.

Was that so? She kind of has the ability to guide his hand, possibly. Right. Or probably does some ability to guide it.

She has the ability. And whether she's doing it is the question.

Right. And only she kind of knows.

Yeah.

Like, there's some studies in there that, that a doctor or a scientist does. It helps you get a little bit of inclination, but even then, you're not fully sure because some people say, like, like, we're the keys to each other's locks. Right. Like, when we maybe when we join hands, yeah, something more magical can happen, you know? But then also I start to think about, like, the ownership now of, like, social media and these bigger corporations that own a lot of the platforms that we communicate on, because they can dictate if we're even allowed to say certain things. It's like, you might write what you really want to say, but at some point they can say, well, we understand what you'd like to say, but you're only allowed to say these things. Are you okay if we format it for that? And you have to say yes, and if you hit no, it just asks you the question.

Again, seriously.

I mean, I just.

Does that happen? Is that real?

It just feels like that's very much where we're headed. Like, they give you a certain amount of emojis. You don't get all of them. If you want to feel belittled, you must. You have to pay $2,000 a month for that emojis. I just wonder if that's where. You know what I'm saying?

Like, what color are you in your emojis? Like, when you. You know, the smiley face, did you opt for the white one? I'm sticking with yellow. And increasingly, I wonder if it's very asian. That's a bold choice.

A lot of Asians would be upset about it, too.

Would they, though? Because it's a bright puce yellow. It's no yellow that's found in the human condition.

I would agree with you.

What? What emoji. Because, you know, there's a certain point where the first time you use a reaction, it gives you a choice. So now you have a dilemma. Do I go white? Do I go off white? Do I go beige?

I think it depends on what neighborhood I'm driving through at the time sometimes.

Really?

Oh, yeah. Because I'll be like, you know, this is what's going on around here.

And you're half nicaraguan, so you must. Did you go white or off white?

I'll go off white. I'll go middle eastern sometimes.

So you keep choosing different.

Oh, yeah. I'll throw a sand brother out there, dude. Yeah, I'll do it all, man. Cuz you gotta keep people on the edge. I mean, I even choose the pregnant guy nowadays, you know, it's like, what are we even fucking doing?

Is there a pregnant guy?

There's a fucking pregnant guy. What are we doing? They're trying to legalize all that, you know? But do you worry about that? About, like, censorship and what will be allowed? I've said this before, but it's like. Like, it used to be like, you wrote on the paper, right? And now you can still write on the paper.

But what if you want a piece of paper? Yes, you can.

But what if the paper. What if they own. What if.

I think I got shadow banned. I don't know what for.

Well, here you go.

I don't know what for. Either that or it's so boring that they were like, we gotta stop putting. We gotta dis. He's making the platform look bad. His tweets are so banal. Just dial them right down. He's making everyone. You know, when I did Joe Rogan's podcast, I did it twice. And when he moved to Spotify, do you remember that? Big deal. And they gave him like, 10,000 million, whatever, dollars.

Yeah.

And some of them, they took off. Like, they took some episodes.

They took one of yours off.

So they took the most contentious. Like, these are two. We can't put this on Spotify. This is too inflammatory. And one of mine was taken off, but I think it was taken off because I was so boring. I just can't, because I said it's nothing. But I loved that I might be too spicy. And I was like, they've taken me down. You know, like, I've been made. They made me. They canceled me.

Yeah.

But it was, I think, because first time I did Rogan, I didn't know how big he was. And you know how he kind of plays a reactive game. Like, in other words, he doesn't. Go on, say, like, like, I've watched all your programs. I'm gonna do. I was gonna do an english accent. I don't know why. Here's Joe Rogan. I've watched all your programs, and I've done a lot of research. And he's more like, hey, welcome. How's it going? And I was like, I'm very reactive as well. So it's kind of like, how you doing? I'm like, good. How are you doing? Good. And then it was like 2 hours went by and it kind of got into a groove a bit.

Yeah.

I mean, it's probably fine. I haven't got listened to.

The one I listen to I thought was fine.

That was good. The second one, I went back and I was like, oh, I get it.

Maybe that was it.

Yeah, the second one was fine. So I'm quite glad that they. But your point was about. So, yeah, I think they shadow banned me on Twitter. I can't prove it. Instagram, I'm okay. I can put a picture of my. I could just. I can tell. I could just do a selfie and put it on. On Instagram, and it goes viral. I don't know why. But, you know, if I say I've got alopecia and I'm feeling sad, you know, like, cynical, what do they call that?

I'll put three black dude emojis in there. If you say that just to spice things up.

You think that would make a difference?

Oh, yeah, dude, you bring a brother in, it adds some heat to the.

Situation, because I've listened to your content, and you go close to the line. I'm like, I better check out how Theo. Like, what's the closest Theo's got to being canceled?

Some of it.

But you've never been canceled.

No, I've never been. Can't, you know, like. I don't know. Like, I think a lot of times, I'm kind of, like, just having a good time.

You get a free pass, I think, because you're a comedian and people are like, he's just having.

He's goofing around, and you're like, people know. I feel like a lot of times, like you're saying even just running in a liv Tyler for 30 seconds and getting a menthol offer, you sometimes can know where people.

But didn't you used to work out with David Duke?

They're harder at. Yeah. And, yeah, we just. All we did was fitness, dude, did.

You, like, what's it called? Did you spot him? Is that the term? Does that mean something?

I don't know if it means anything beyond the fact that you're right there assisting him in that moment.

Would you be like, hey, Theo, would you spot me? Would you. What could he bench?

He was strong.

Was he?

He was strong. I mean, he.

Did you try and beat. Were you trying to be a positive influence on him, or would that. Would that have been inappropriate?

No, I was using steroids, I think, at the time. I was just trying to frickin be jacked out there, dude. I was trying to flirt with this chick, dude. His girl was so. She was just a gorgeous. She didn't do anything at the restaurant. Like, she worked there, but I don't even know if she knew what her job was. She was just so pretty. People would just do everything for her, you know, like one of those maidens or whatever, you know?

Did you. But did you. You would have been, what, 1920?

Yeah.

Did you. And you knew he was, like, politically, I.

Well, I'd seen they used to have signs in in Louisiana, it was David Duke versus Edwin Edwards. And he was a fame historian, famed political figure in Louisiana who had stolen tons of money like most of them. And his. The campaign slogan was don't vote for the racist, vote for the crook. Those were the posters. So you knew.

I'm surprised he authorized that, but I.

Think people would rather be stolen from at the time. People would rather be stolen from then have a little bit of racism be going on.

He's. But Duke got a majority of the white vote.

He might have done. Okay.

Yeah.

I don't remember. That's a good question. What was the runoff vote between David do or the David Duke?

And first of all, Duke, he got the. Whatever, was it the republican nomination. Like, he ran for Senate.

Did he really?

Yeah, he got. And then got the majority of the white vote in the race in the final.

When I knew him, he was just doing chest and tries, you know, like, that's what he was doing.

Was he?

Yeah. I don't even know what. Yeah.

How do you. Yeah, I'm trying to work out and be. I'm trying to get more hench. As you get older, you lose muscle mass.

I know that's scary.

About my wife.

Oh, Nancy.

Oh, Nancy.

Um, what does it say?

Could. Does it. I can't. I can't even read that, but basically. Oh, is he the Democrat? No.

In 75, he lost to Kenneth Osterberger. In 79, he was the Republican.

Bennett Johnson. What, is that it? He was the incumbent. He got 40. Duke got 43% to 53.

Yeah.

United States Senate election. I mean, that's wild.

I mean, at the time, was he still that guy, though? I don't. He may have been.

He was, yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of old. There's a lot of racism in the south, you know? And there's a lot of racism that goes both ways in the south, too. There's a lot of black folks that do not like white people.

For real.

Tons, dude, tons. Anyway, it always gets looked at as the other way only. But there's a lot of civic.

They're making. They're making up for lost time.

I agree that there's some of that in there, for sure.

They're like, I agree we gotta get Simone back. But documentary is called. No.

Sometimes one of the tough things you have now is there's so much crime in a lot of the black communities, and it's very unfortunate.

I've made documentaries about gangster rap. Yeah, I made a couple, and one was in.

Well, I wish they were just rapping. Unfortunately, a lot of these men are shooting each other.

Yeah, it's rapping. Seems like the only man.

Two of my good friends have died. My black friends have died from the.

Only part of show business where, like.

Died from being killed, obviously, but. Sorry. Died from just miscellaneous other men shooting them for no reason.

It seems like it's the only branch of show business wherever actually killing someone is not necessarily a career ender.

Rap music.

Right. Because you look at Gucci Mane. He killed someone. They said, yeah, well, it was self defense. Yeah. And no one really minded.

Yeah. Well, what's his name just shot. Killed someone at a Walmart not long ago, huh? Yeah.

Again, that would be like, okay, now that's hilarious, dude.

Thank you for that. Every week he's fucking shooting.

So he wasn't even shooting a movie.

And I think that's his defense. He's like, I thought we were shooting a movie. You know, like, come on, that's crazy.

That's too much.

I love how he's on trial for this. They gave him a gun.

Yeah.

He fucking shoots it.

Yeah.

And the person who gave it to him. God, it's just the whole thing is just bad news. But, yeah, somebody just killed somebody at a Walmart, and they're getting off. Oh, Dababy did.

Yeah, Dababy.

Yeah. And I heard he was in duh, adult section. That's the crazy part. Okay, that's enough of that.

We go. Um, I was gonna say, though, like.

A great documentary that you get. Yeah.

And the truth is, is the pot one of the things the. That his mom Daisy says at the end, he's like. But now he still hasn't recovered. He masturbates. And if you. And she basically blames Ana for the fact that getting him started, she's caught Derek jacking off, and you're thinking, like, he's a 35 year old man living at home. What kind of world is she living in that she thinks that's pathological? Do you know what I mean?

Right.

Like, what. What else? Like, what else would he be doing at home, you know, all day with no girlfriend?

Yeah. I just put two extra ottomans in the middle of the room and let him figure it out, you know, to be honest with you.

Yeah.

That's what a lot of kids need, you know, if he's at that. That stage in his well being, send in.

Like, I don't know if this is, like, considered kosher or not, but aren't there nurses who can do that? And by the way, a nurse can be a man or a woman. But aren't there nurses that can go in and, and isn't that part of therapy? Like that?

You, I would agree.

You would be allowed, like, someone do.

A milking of them?

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't see how that's not a service.

Right.

You can get, oh, dude, you can get somebody to deliver you, like, a damn power tools at midnight, but I can't get somebody to come over and relieve my cousin Ricky or something at 02:00 in the afternoon. I totally agree with you.

They do that in Holland. You know how Holland's ahead on all this stuff? They would, they'd do that. I think in Belgium probably bring that up.

If anybody's milking. I don't know what the term is really. If some people are exasperating the, I think it's called.

There is a word for. There's a polite word. There's a kind of medical word that makes it sound okay.

Something very british. Yeah. If people are.

Yeah. Manual relief or assisted ejaculation.

Assisted ejaculation. Bring that up. Actually, no, that's gonna fucking. And I'm 22 days off of pornography right now.

So are you.

Oh, thank you. Thank God.

How does that.

Longest I've been in a long time.

How does that feel? And you're in a hotel too. Where are you in? At B and B?

I'm in a hotel. Oh, I'll, yeah, I'll, doesn't matter what kind of place I'm in. I'll bust. Yeah.

What?

I haven't been, what?

Why not?

22 days off of masturbation, something like that. And off of pornography? I just have gotten into, like, this, this other program I have, like a kind of a per, I got a check in and make sure. Just like, I just don't want to do it anymore.

Yeah.

I wasn't having a problem with it, but it just had been a long part of my life where it's like, oh, this is habitual and I don't like it.

How does it make you feel not doing it?

It makes me feel more empowered and it makes me feel proud, like, a little bit. There's a part of me that makes me feel proud of myself. That crazy.

You could get a bumper sticker or something. I wonder the best way of honoring that. Like, a little.

I would say, like, a little too hard.

Proudly. What is it? Proudly, 50 days non jacking up. What would be. Yeah. Is there a support group for that?

There are, there is. Yeah. Cause a lot of it's just about, like, just making sure you're not looking at pornography. I just want that stuff influencing my thoughts and feelings. Because then you start to, like, whenever.

It intrudes into daily life.

Hundred percent. Well, when you're engaged in sex, you think of it in, like, frames of shot. You're not even involved in, like, a real connection with someone, you know. And after years of that and stuff, it's a. For me, it was really unhealthy.

So what are your vices now then?

Vaping, probably. Drawing pictures of tits. A lot of times, like, if I'm sitting around and I'm with a napkin or something, I notice I'll just look down and suddenly there's like six or seven sets of breasts or whatever. Tits or whatever. Some people call them tits, I call them that. What else? Having some chocolates, probably.

You don't drink at all? What about, are you California sobereze?

Mm mm.

You know that term?

Yeah. You can still smoke pot.

Yeah. And take mushrooms, too.

No, I've done, like, the microdosing or whatever. And I've done ayahuasca, you know.

Have you?

And that's really fascinating. That's fascinating, dude, you want to see something you never thought could happen on earth? Go try that. It's like getting abducted by aliens. It's almost as crazy as that.

I'm scared. You've never been abducted by aliens?

I don't know which is, I think, what any good man should answer. Louie.

Right. I. I'm a little scared of the ayahuasca because the people I've spoken to, they're like, yeah, it is really heavy. And they'll say. And the person next to me, they were like, it was a pretty good trip, but the person next to me was screaming and thought they were dying. So that kind of harshed my mellow a little bit. And I'm thinking I might be that guy.

Yeah, that person could have also just been scottish as well, because I know they can get very verbose at times. Yeah, the Scots. Well, the whole thing's fascinating to me about the British. No, I think you would love it, man.

Did we get anything on carfentanil? 10,000 times more powerful than morphine. A hundred times more potent than fentanyl.

I told you, the presence of carfentanol in illicit US drug markets is cause for concern. As. And that's the nice thing. If you're gonna do cocaine, come to England.

What's, look at the chemical formula was c 24 H 20 n 02:03 I.

Mean, look up a little bit more car. Finnell, go to go to Wikipedia right there.

Who would. You would just have to walk past it.

Effects and side effects in humans are similar to those of other opioids and include euphoria, relaxation, pain relief, pupil constriction, sedation slowed, heart rate, low blood pressure, lower body temperature. You know, a lot of people choke to death when they take these drugs because they. Then they're on it. They think they're okay. They eat. The muscles in their throat don't work.

Right, and then they choke.

And they choke to death. So you just imagine you're having a piece of chicken and you love it, and you can't swallow it. You tried to swallow it. You did the normal. Your fucking neck breaks down.

That's hideous. You don't. You wouldn't think you'd be that hungry. You know what I mean? Like, it's like I'm higher than I've ever been, but what I really want is a chicken sandwich seems a strange. You know what I mean?

Yeah, it really does.

Like, I'm still not happy.

Yeah.

I don't know.

No, I think, yeah, that's a very. But every now and then, you'll be shocked. Sometimes when you'll try to do some food. When you're hungry, you'll be surprised. You're like, oh, I didn't expect. That's the worst. I remember I'd be all coked up or something and make a nice meal, and then I want to eat it. Just fucking do more drugs.

But it's exciting being on Netflix with the doc. And for us, it took us six years to make this. I mean, that was just. And I joined Nick. Nick had already been. The director, had already been making it for a couple of years. Wow. So, like, it's an eight, nine year journey. And to finally land it, not just in the UK, because it came out here first, but on a big streamer. Like, Netflix. Feels big for us. Feels like a thrill. I know you've got your specials on Netflix. They're the big game. They're the big game in town now.

Yeah, they're good. It's definitely.

You have a good experience with them?

Yeah, I think so. They actually made us. They told the fans, like, they were coming to shoot at this. At the comedy special, the last one that they had to have COVID vaccinations, like, the day, like, literally three days before last time, so. Or maybe even no joke two days before. And I thought that that was kind of fucking weird.

Yeah.

You know what?

So everyone. So it wasn't enough that you get tested, you actually had to get vaxxed.

Right. And so that made a lot of people be like, fuck them, you know? Yeah, I mean, people love Netflix, but at the same, because we're addicted to it, but at the same time, I think people, there's, well, here's one of the things I noticed personally, like, so I went to the last blockbuster. You ever have blockbuster videos?

Of course.

Beautiful places.

I used to use it a lot. That was Netflix before Netflix.

Hundred percent. And it's still functioning. You can go in there, it looks just like the ones you used to have. There's a kind of disgruntled person behind the desk. One thing I noticed about that blockbuster is the autonomy you have when you're, I think, I don't know if autonomy's word, but the amount of just you, when you're walking around looking, there's so many options of things to look at and see, you're like, oh, I forgot about this. I'd love to see this. Look at this. And what about this? Whereas once you get onto one of the streamers, it's really only what they want you to see.

Like, unless you know exactly what you're looking for.

Right, but before. But it's so hard for our brain to keep all that catalog, server them, to have all that catalog, but you don't really get to peruse it, really. It was a total different experience, like, and the joy you felt kind of finding something a little bit physically like, oh, let's watch this. And things you never even thought existed anymore, you know? So then you kind of get channeled into only what is happening now in a way. So I think it's also going to be tougher for movies to become classics or like, build up that indie fervor sometimes.

You're definitely a victim of the algorithm, and that's a soft kind of influence. It's not censorship, obviously, but what it is is a kind of curating of your experience. Obviously they want you to watch as much as possible, so they don't want to feed you things you don't like. Yeah, but it keeps you in your lane a little bit. Is this is the risk? Yeah, but maybe they'll have, like, when they get further along with things like VR, you will be able to kind of go inside the tv. Right. And look around on the shelves.

That would be. Don't you think you would hope that that's what they're headed towards because. Yeah, just that experience was so it just brought me back to, oh, I have some say in what I choose. Whereas this felt like I don't have as much.

But I was, though. I was one of those guys who would rent something and then weeks would go by, and I would still not have watched it. I think I had Blade Runner for, like, three weeks every day. That'll get. That gets expensive.

Oh, yeah. It would stack up and you'd be embarrassed taking it back.

Yeah. And you'd say, give me a. Come on. Give me a break. And sometimes they would bring it down a little bit.

Sometimes they give you some snow caps or something. Like, I need a fucking financial break here.

But you remember, like, when they. You're probably too young, but when videos came along and it was a new technology, it was kind of like before blockbuster, everyone. Everyone thought I could make money with this. So you would pop into the dry cleaners and then have a little video section or your. Or the 711 or, like the local candy shop. Right. And they'd have a little, like 15 video library. You know what I mean?

I didn't know that.

Yeah, it was weird.

That's awesome.

And then there was a winnowing, and they're like, you know, we should. This is ridiculous. We need to have some place that just does that.

We had a place called Pat shrimp and video, and you could get you a pound of shrimp and get you.

A movie over Covington.

Yeah, it was nice, dude. Get you a little bit of shrimp. Get you a little film or something.

You know what you'll find over here is that I think the chocolates a little bit better. 100% if you go in, and no disrespect, and maybe they're one of your sponsors, but Hershey. Hershey's chocolate, I'm not a big fan of.

And me neither, honestly. And I'll say that out loud.

Yeah. Come on. Fuck those guys.

Well, it's just shit. Chocolate. What are you fucking making for people?

I think if I actually think. And you can check this. They could not legally sell that as chocolate in the EU. Wow. Because they'd be like, there's not enough chocolate in the chocolate. Right? I'm serious.

100%.

You know, the cocoa content would be. They'd be like, this is Vegliet. We can call it veglut. Right? If you want to call it coke. Hershey's vegliet. But we can't call it chocolate.

Yeah.

Because it tastes. It's very sweet, but it doesn't have the richness.

Yeah. Like, we can call it african american butter if you want. You know, and like, well, it doesn't need to be racialized. We just need it to be actual chocolate. You know, you would think, though, also in America, that has had a lot of history with African Americans, you think at least they would put the appropriate amount of African American in the chocolate. Dude, that's the kind of shit that pisses me off. Hershey's lawsuit sparks british revolt for superior Cadbury chocolate. But I will say this. When you walk into some of the chocolatiers that are in Britain, it feels like you are.

Oh, yeah.

It feels regal. It feels royal. It feels real.

And if you go to Belgium, forget about. Really? Yes.

Oh.

I mean, it's ridiculous. Like, it's actually. It's like being in Tiffany's, like a jewelry store. It's that it's so redolent of class and kind of gourmet values, and. And the things are exquisite. Like, they just make beautiful objects out.

Of the chocolate presentations. Yeah.

Presentation is off the scale.

Yeah.

We haven't tried revels. Do you know what? Try some revels while you're over here.

Is it good?

It's a. It's a mixture of different. I just like, you don't know what you're gonna get when you put your hand in. And then they used to have, like, they have a reduced one, like a crunchy honeycomb one. There'd be an orange one, a coffee one, and these have a peanut one. And then they have to. They had. They discontinued that because of the allergy issues.

Yeah, but those people, we don't need them on earth.

I think people would say, like, the joke was like, you know, people with allergies would use it like it was russian roulette. Oh, I love that one. I don't know if this is going to kill me or nothing. The thrill. I don't know if anyone actually would do that. But a little part, I'm not going to be the guy who's like, is health and safety gone mad. I mean, we don't want people to die from eating a chocolate. But a little part of me was like, wow, so we can't have fucking.

Peanut revels anymore just because that's a huge part. I think at a certain point, you have to go with the status quo.

I was in a movie theater once, and I was. I had my. I think I had pick and mix. You know what that is? Okay. You just select different sweets and candies. You know, a bit of them. Bit of them. But you make your own bag.

Okay.

I was like, this is gonna be. And I sat down to eat the sweets. And the woman in front of me and says, sorry, just to say my son has a peanut allergy. So if you wouldn't eat any of your sweets, I'd appreciate it. So of course, I'm like, oh, of course. Yeah, not a problem. I don't want someone to die because of me in the theater. But. But I was also thinking like, Juan, I can't eat my sweets.

Yeah, dude, that's in. What? Who do they think you are, John Wilkes Booth or something? It's not your fucking responsibility to keep this kid alive. It's her responsibility.

But what if I go and sit over there like, nope, no, that's not good enough. Okay, dude.

Yeah, that kind of stuff.

You know what I did, and we can cut this bit out.

No, I went.

I went to the. I went to far away in the theater and then I ate them.

Yeah. And did part of you eat them out of spite? Almost in a bit.

Of course. No, I ate because I wanted to eat them.

Yeah, but some of you, with each one, you were like, oh, that little motherfucker couldn't handle these. Yeah. You're just firing him over towards him. Let me think about what else. Oh, do you think what's on your mind these days, Louie? Like, what's. What's something when you think, I've got.

A podcast on Spotify. I went the Rogan route. Are you on Spotify?

Yes.

Are you?

Well, you only. I know. I don't. I don't own. I don't have a deal.

But they can put you on there.

Yeah.

And they don't pay you.

Nope. I know you're making it sound like a horrible situation, but we are all. But we just put it on there just to be everywhere. Yeah.

You're not a Spotify pod. I'm a Spotify podcast.

Oh, nice.

The Louis Theroux podcast. So I've been doing that, and then I've got new shows coming up. I've got stuff that's on. Oh. I mean, my big thing is I diversified, so I started making more stuff behind the scenes. So I've got a series. Do you remember the challenger explosion?

Yeah. A lot of people said, those people are still alive recently.

Where are they?

Huh?

Where would they be?

Bring some of that up. People have been saying that. Can you say challenger? People still alive?

We did a whole.

Do you have it? Is this what yours is about?

It's not about. According to us, they're dead. According to our research. Did I say challenger? I meant Columbia.

Okay, Columbia.

Sorry, I fucked up. Columbia is the one that it was in 2001.

Oh, yeah. Those people are dead. The challenger people, I think, are alive, though.

Challenger is the one that exploded on takeoff. Columbia exploded on reentry.

No.

Yeah. And not only that, they had. I wouldn't say they knew, but they had an inkling that something might go wrong, and they decided not to tell the astronauts.

No.

And so the big. The question at the heart of it is what. What could they have done differently? Could they have sent another rocket up and taken, you know, taken the people out in a spacewalk and bring them back home, you know, in the other rocket, like, send up a russian rocket?

Right.

Could they have fixed it, done a spacewalk and fixed the bit that they thought might be damaged? So there's a lot of questions around how it could have been handled so that. So I would actually. I wasn't an exec on it, but my company made that. We're very proud of that series.

Wow.

And then we've got one about Lockerbie, and we do a lot of heavy stuff. Do you know what Lockerbie is?

Lockerbie? That's not the Loch Ness monster, is it?

No, but it is in Scotland. It was a village and a plane. It was a Pan Am plane that was flying from London to New York, I believe, and had a lot of american and british people on it, including a whole bunch of students from Syracuse University, I believe, and it was bombed. And there's a lot of conspiracy theories around that, or theories as to what happened. So we made a four part documentary. That one's gonna be on CNN. So, anyway, I've been making a ton of different. And it's a. Do you do any behind the scenes stuff? Like, do. Do you have people you're mentoring, or do you have, like, a production?

No, right now we've just been doing this sort of thing.

Yeah.

You know, I would like to. Sometimes I think about doing some different. Like, I've had just some thoughts, you know, about stuff, you know, like, sometimes maybe about, like, Alzheimer's. Learning about that, maybe.

I made a documentary about that. That's an interesting. Yeah. It was called extreme love dementia. And about the ways. Yeah. It's about how we can best look after people with dementia. Yeah. A lot of them are very happy. Like, not to sound weird.

I think it's fine if they think they're younger, a child, whatever, you. You know, I don't know, but it's just about making them okay and comfortable, you know?

Yeah. You just gotta let them be them. I mean, that sounds a bit glib, but you know if they say one of them was, he was a doctor. No, he was a dentist. And he was in this memory support facility in Phoenix, Arizona, surrounded by nurses and other very old people and fairly old people. And he'd been a military dentist. And he was like, I'm on this base, I'm a dentist. I'm doing something dental. I know that. Like, I'm like, really? You don't? Because you mustn't contradict them because that creates distress, confusion. You're like, okay. And then you change the subject. So he thought he was still working as a dentist, fixing people's teeth. And if he was distressed, you would say to him, hey, Gary, would you mind taking a look at my teeth? And then he'd do, like, he'd do a dental inspection, and then he'd forget what was bothering him. So look this. In this bit, we can see he's trying to get out. He's like, I want to lean. I want to go through this door. But it says, push and the alarm will sound. And he's getting agitated. And then I'm like, hey, Gary, you're always going to be an Indian.

Would you take a quick look at my teeth? Yes, sir, I would. They're not very clean, though. Well, I know.

You're a Brit, aren't you?

Yeah, I know. Please. You got good occlusion. And now he's fine. I wouldn't do anything about it. That's not going to hurt you now.

Oh, he might be. Yeah. Sounds like somebody that's checking in on animals, too. Like he could be breeding dogs or whatever. Some of the commentary he gave there, he's.

But the point being, he's like, he's happy and he's living in his own world. He's in a. He's in a fictional reality of his own memories.

Yeah.

And it's kind of amazing.

I wanted to do something called, like, children of the porn, right? It was like children that were conceived on pornography sets during the shootings.

Right? I think that's not many, though, do you think?

I think you got to get at least seven or eight of them. You only need a decent batch.

Hard to prove as well, because there's so, you know, if you're a working porn performer, you're going to be doing at least three or four scenes a.

Week, maybe more, maybe not during a strike season. Maybe if you went, look, during a.

Strike, during a scare, when it's like someone test positive and they shut down.

So there are only a couple of shoots that year, that month, and if. Yeah. I don't know. Just something that I.

Have. You got onlyfans?

No, I don't. I don't have it, and I'm glad I don't. What else did I think about? Oh, morning sex. Maybe a documentary about that. How did we get here? You know, like sex.

Because you're bereaved and you're in mourning.

No, morning sex. No, that you're talking about, like funeral folk. Like. Yeah, like funeral sex or whatever.

I can't get out of my grief.

Yeah, like.

Or more. But you mean sex in the morning?

In the morning angle. I just think. I don't care what it is. It's just probably just. I think fucking somebody right after they woke up is pretty sick, I think.

You know, as in good. No, because sick means good.

Oh, yeah. Well, I think it just. No, it went bad. Now it's bad again. Yeah.

Anyway, I'm coasting out of that. All of that stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm pretty old.

Well, I think it just also you. Part of you loses interest in some.

Of that side of the hill.

Yeah. Well, your penis. You've done all the tricks you can do with it.

Just try to stay alive.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? I'm retreating. You know what I like? Gradually, everything is. It's about. We just need to focus on getting to the next day.

Yeah. Do you feel accomplished?

Yeah. You're not supposed to say yes, but I do. I do.

Because it's a really cool thing to say. I think it's important.

I. I don't think I. You know, there's. People have done way more, obviously, stuff than me, but. Because I've been so lucky with the career that I've had. And I think maybe because of that, when I came along, it was like, there was various things happening in tv and documentaries and it was kind of like. It just. There was an opening. Like, there was no one who done kind of like, well, there. What? Just wasn't that guy like that. He's kind of a little bit cerebral, but he likes to joke around and he's curious about this and he's a good listener and he makes. And then the BBC gave me, like, they just, like, just keep making those programs and they didn't really even check up on me. And suddenly, like, 15 years went by and I'd made 50 programs and I basically had covered everything. I mean, there's still stuff out there, but there's so much I've got, you know, like, I've done a prison, I've done jails. I've done a maximum security mental hospital for pedophiles. I've done most of the high crime areas, like, let's say most of. But I've done Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Johannesburg, Lagos.

I've covered so much. I feel like I've had this huge privilege, this gift, and it's pretty cool. I don't want that to sound weird.

I don't think it does. No, no. Well, it's just a lot of times, especially, I think, in the US, we don't feel that. You never hear someone talk about, okay, I feel accomplished. But, you know, it's always just like, this never ending thing. That is.

But I'm trying to make myself okay with slowing down as well, obviously by one metric. No, like, I'm not. You know, I grew up in a household where we valued Shakespeare. Me again. Welcome back. And so, for me, I accomplished. My dad's a writer.

Yeah.

He's a travel writer. He lives in Hawaii and also Cape Cod in the summer. And he's written, like, 60 or 70 novels and travel books. Like, he's off the charts accomplished, so. And, you know, and the people we looked up to when I was growing up, people like, you know, just great literary figures like James Joyce or F. Scott Fitzgerald.

John Irving.

John Irving. He wouldn't have been. He would have been too close in age to my dad, so my dad would have probably. I never read John Irving, but it was, let's say, Hemingway or Faulkner. Right. Thinking I'm mentioning a southern. Right. Do you know who Charles Portis is? He wrote true grit.

Oh, wow.

And he was from, I believe, little Rock, Arkansas. He's a southerner, and he's dead now. Brilliant writer. Everything he wrote is a kind of classic. Of a kind. So he was a. He wasn't. He was just someone who. My dad was like, you should read Charles Port. He's like, true grit's well known, but his other books are all right, equally good, if not better. So I read three of his books, but my point is just. And I totally recommend them. One is called Norwood, another one is called the Dog of the south. And so, by that metric, no, I'm not accomplished because I'm not a gifted writer. I'm just a tv presenter. I'm not even really a documentary maker, really. Like, I'm not a director. I'm the guy who works with a director, and we say, hey, I'd love to go to a prison. And then the team says, we'll make that happen for you. And they go. And, you know, they figure out how we get in. And then we get amazing access for two, three weeks.

Right.

Or in a cult or in a, or in the world of adult film or, or the far right, some far right group.

But you're the right amount of curious, though.

But I'm curious and in a sense, by being a little bit scattershot, a little bit bit not ready for prime time, a little bit unfocused, maybe a tiny bit. I don't know what it may be. Adhd. I'm not sure what it is. I don't want to medicalize it. But whatever that is, I got, I get impatient, I get twitchy. And then, so the people who are focused and on it can get me in there. And by dint of their work, I've created, I've made, I've been part of making these programs.

It's cool.

Yeah. I've been trying to, I'm trying to row back from saying I'm accomplished. I already regret.

No, I don't feel, I feel like it's you very lightly, very lucky.

Yeah.

You very lightly say, well, most people view you as extremely accomplished. So I just think it's interesting to hear your thoughts on that. The pedophilia, man, would you learn about it? Because now sometimes people are saying that it's, you know, the next big business or whatever.

In what way?

Like, it's like the next Apple computer or whatever, you know, saying, I feel like it's like in America, there's like, there's, there's that NAMBLA group. There's people trying to, like, legalize it. They're saying that the Romans do it.

Yeah, Romans did it. Greeks, I think famously was Greeks, wasn't it? And they said that was normal in those days. And then there was NAMBLA. I remember seeing a documentary when I was coming up. I used to live in New York and there was a place called Kim's video, talking about blockbuster. Kim's was like, it was way beyond blockbuster. They had everything and they had every kind of film. And they were organized by director. They'd be Curacawa, Spielberg, Jean Renoir, like some obscure stuff that you wouldn't see anywhere else. You know, go into blockbuster and say, where's your Kurosawa section? They'd be like, you know, yeah.

Oh, Sarah, we, we'll give you some snow cats.

But Kim's had everything. And in the nineties, when I was coming up, I was working as a print journalist, and you'd go down to Kim's and it was like an education in film. And they had a documentary section that had incredible, like, one film they had that I want to mention. You may even. Even have seen. It was called dream deceivers. Have you heard about it? And it was about two kids who listened to a lot of. Is it Black Sabbath? No, Judas Priest. And they had a song called suicide solution. And the two kids decide, like, they think the lyrics are saying, suicide solution, just do it. And so they're like, yeah, we need to. We need to commit suicide. I know it's very heavy.

And they.

And they kill themselves.

No.

Yeah. And then one of them doesn't manage to do it. He just shoots off the lower half of his face. So he's interviewed in the documentary.

I gotta see that.

But he can't really speak properly. And. And then Judah's priests are prosecuted by the kid's parents. I think saying, like, it's your fault. It's because of the lyrics. And then Rob Halford from Judas Priest is on the witness stand explaining, like, it's not. You know, we just made a song. He said. He's from Birmingham, isn't he? So we just made a song. And it wasn't supposed to tell anyone to. I can't. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, that's very fair.

And it's a very. It's a. And I remember seeing that and thinking, this is so fucked up. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm really curious about. And it's dark and it's upsetting. And there's the kid. He's died since then.

Oh, man, I gotta learn about that. We just had a group on called the suicide boys, and they. They had a pact when they were young that if they didn't make it, that they were gonna commit suicide.

Make it as what?

As white rappers. So it was a fucking. Let's just say the deck was stacked against him.

But there's some. There's some pretty good. I feel like down south, there's. Is it Bubba Sparks?

Bubba sparks. He was on one time. Bubba sparks. A really neat guy.

Is he still going?

He had some pill addiction. He still does do some work, though. He still does work, so. But there's a lot of. There's a lot of white rappers out of the UK now.

Oh, yeah. I would say white and black. Very talented, in fact. The UK drill scene, central City, central c. Did you have him on central c?

No. I thought about reaching out to him, but do it. We had Ed Sheeran and KSI and you and I felt like it was a good.

That's a great mix.

I feel like a very, very flattered.

To be in that company.

What's. I mean, I feel very flatter to be in the company, so.

But on the, on the, on the Kim, because you were talking about pedophiles being the next big thing in tech, which I didn't fully understand, but you.

Don'T know if I said that. Exactly.

You seriously, the next Apple product.

Oh, yeah. I was just saying, like, it's like it's become this hot thing in America. It's like, it just seems like they try to make it seem more norm, like.

Well, so the thing was, I was gonna say was there's this documentary that, in this, in Kim's in the documentary section, and it was about Nambala. It's called chicken hawk. All I was gonna say on that was, so back in the day, Nambala was big Allen Ginsburg, the poet. I'm not trying to, like, throw shade on him or whatever.

No.

Brilliant beat poet, much beloved. But he was a member of NAMBLA, I believe you can check that. But. And Howard Stern in the nineties always used to have, you know how you would have people on who. He had a clan guy who would come on and he make fun of him and he had a NAMBLA guy he would have on. So my point is, just like, Nambla's been around chicken hawk men who love boys. It's a very weird documentary where they spend time with a couple of guys or one guy from NAMBLA, and they're just talking to him, figuring out what makes them tick, what's going on with them. Them. And did you confirm the Allen Ginsburg?

Yeah, let's look back and just bring up Allen Ginsburg. I just want to make sure that we're referencing.

Yeah, we don't want to make someone part of Nambler if they're not. Well, he was their celebrity. Like, they had one celebrity. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah.

Associated with NAMbLA, was a supporter and a member. Good enough.

There we go.

Nash is a north american man. Boy Love association. So was Michael Jackson in Nambour?

I mean, I'm sure he definitely performed at some of their events. You would think. Yeah.

You know what have you ever said, like, I went on Twitter and said, come on. And we all know Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Like, we've seen the program and even before that, like, we. There was no shortage of evidence. Like, his music's still great, obviously. Yeah, but let's not, not be silly, but let's not be in denial about what's happening. And I got, you get so much comeback, really, on Twitter? Like, on x from that. Does that surprise you?

Like, no, I'll say, I'm gonna tweet that as soon as we get out of here, just to remind people. Yeah, I was really surprised.

There's people who are still like, you know, that's so shocking that you would say that about Michael. I'm like, what? Which Michael Jackson are you talking about? So I don't think they're trying to normal. But my perception I saw when I went to Coalinga, it's a maximum security mental hospital for sexually violent predators is the term. And they go around in beige suits. And it's a hospital, so they can't punish the men there. Right. It's a legal requirement. It's a hospital. So they're not incarcerated on the grounds of serving ascendant sentence. They've done at least two significant terms in prison for sexual offenses. And then two psychiatrists have said, yeah, we're not ready for you to come out. And they're like, hang on, I've done my time. What are you talking about? I've done. I've done 15 years. And they're like, yeah, but you're mentally ill. And they're like, I'm not mentally ill. They're like, I'm just a pedophile. That's their.

Oh, I see, right.

They're like, I don't have delusions. And. Which is obviously, in a weird way, is a kind of medical. Arguably a psychiatric gray area.

Right. Because they're saying, I know I'm a pedophile. Yeah, it's not like I'm in the. Yeah, like, oh, I'm not a pedophile.

Yeah. Or some of them alike. And I don't mean to be like, but they're like, I mean, I. Because some of them are rapists. And they're like, but I'm a rapist. Why are you putting me in? Like. Like, but I did my time for that. And also, why are you putting me in with these pedophiles? Right. And they're saying I committed a crime, but that doesn't mean I can't. And like, why are you letting out murderers but you won't let me out? But the argument goes like, well, because you're mentally ill, according to our metrics, due to being a pedophile. So anyway, so they're there and they're like, well, I'm not gonna. They're like, and if you spend long enough here and do enough treatment will let you out, and they're like, no, you won't. Oh, no, you won't. So none of them are. Very few of them, proportionally are doing the treatment, but they. They can't be punished. So they play in jazz combos. They're getting. They're playing tennis, doing art therapy. They can have porn.

Hmm.

They can vote. I'm gonna vote for a bomb. You know what I mean? They're living lives, like, in a. It's too strong to say country club style, but, like a relatively pleasant mental facility.

And everyone in there is a pedophile or a.

Or a. They've been or a rapist.

They're predator. Sexual predator.

Sexually violent predator. The term violent implies, like, oh, they beat you up, but it's some of its grooming. It's a kind of legal definition of.

Yeah.

And then they play softball. Play a lot of softball.

Wow.

Yeah.

They now, if they live stream that, people would pay to watch that.

And they sell their hair. You. They would. You think so? I don't know.

In a hoppy. Why watching pedophiles play softball, it looks.

A lot like anyone else.

Yeah. But still, every now and then, it's gonna get a little weird, and people are like, look at this. You know, people would pay. You'd be surprised, I think, of what people would pay for. I wouldn't pay for it. I don't think I would look at the highlights or whatever if it was on sports, like, on ESPN five.

Like one of the real, you know, like when law school lawnmower races with.

The dog shows on their dog shows.

A lawnmower races. I'm saying lawnmower races. Like, it's fringe, but that's probably mainstream.

You know what I mean?

Like, and. And, yeah, there they are.

That's the worst. Do you think this is a born sickness or a learned thing, do you think?

I would say, according to what I was told, a bit of both, I think. But I think there's a component where it's what they term a paraphilia. Like, it's just. It's like you can't actually cure it. You know, the term cure any more than any other, I always thought, like, it's like a sexual orientation, which isn't in any way to attempt to normalize it, because it's just the idea is, like, actually, this is just something they are not even have. Like, something they are so. And they need and even, like. And what they. They have to. And they. What they do is they convince themselves that there's no victims like that. The kids are okay with it. A bit like Michael Jackson. Right. My theory with Michael Jackson is that the whole time he was trying to tell us what he was like. Every interview he would say, like, I sleep in the bed with kids. It's love. What's wrong with that? You know? Like, in other words, like, he was always trying to come out. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

We took in his Diane Sawyer interview, or is Michael. It went with Martin. His Martin Bashir interview. There might have been. Was there an oprah one? He just wouldn't shut up about it.

Yeah, I think it had to get it. Yeah. He had to find some way for it to let people know. He probably was a nice guy who also had this affliction. You know, that's the craziest thing about a lot of things. It seems like that you investigate. A lot of the stuff you investigate are these people. It's not like they're. Some of them could be practicing.

I think the kids took. I think it took the kids a while to realize they'd been abused as well.

Well, yeah.

They thought they were just having fun with Michael Jackson. I don't mean to sound like. No, well, I think what I mean.

Yeah, well, I think it all just goes to what you believe is okay. You don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes. In the over. In the bigger scope of things, yes, it seems. It's really messed up, and we were able to see that. But at the time, if you're there and you're in it and nobody's told you that it's bad or you haven't told anybody that it's happening, can I.

Tell you, I've never said this before, but I heard a theory that, you know, Michael Jackson was on an episode of the Simpsons.

I didn't know they pulled it.

It was an uncredited guest cameo as a mentally ill man who thinks he's Michael Jackson.

Hmm.

Does that ring a bell? It's a really great episode. You can't see it now. They pulled it, but the theory I heard was that he agreed to be on the Simpsons on the one condition, that he could spend the night with Bart Simpson. So they had to write that into the script.

No way.

So in the episode, he's, um. He spends the night with Bart, and they stay up all night writing a song together called Happy Birthday. Called Happy Birthday, Lisa, I think.

Oh, this looks like it right here.

Yeah. I don't know, but I. It's always like.

And I spend the night with Bard in the episode yeah, but.

Because why would he do that, though? Unless he's trying to in some way normalize adults and kids spending the night together.

Unless he's trying to eat that. Eat my shorts, you know, or whatever. God, it's crazy. Yeah. That's what I wonder with, like, a lot of the Epstein stuff and stuff. It's like, are we. Is there this overall master arcing thing that's, like, leading us into this, like, depravity world, or did people always used to behave that way? I don't know.

I feel like it was always. It used to be like, you know, in this country, in the UK, we used to have page three goals, and you could be 16 and be a page three girl. And, you know, it's arguably porn. Like, they're topless. They don't do it anymore. But, you know, 16 is very young, and, like, to have that in your national newspaper. There's a topless 16 year old. They changed the law in around 2003. My point is just that I think, in a weird way, it was more normal in the past to fail. To fail to police inappropriate relation. Like, there was more sense of, like, you know, when you look at all the Roman Polanski stuff.

Yeah.

Or stuff that was happening in the sixties and seventies. I think nowadays I almost feel like the Epstein thing is a distraction. I mean, I might be being naive. I feel like they're trying to make out. Obviously, he was a terrible guy. Right. Who was grooming and molesting teenagers. But I almost feel like they're trying to make it, like, make us all feel like there's this vip and maybe there are, but I feel like it's all. Most of that stuff's actually happening in plain. Look at the stuff that's going on in the regular porn industry. You know what I mean? They don't really need to hide it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's part of. It's like. Yeah, it's like. Well, I think it makes. Starts to make people think that, okay, the rich and elite are, like, on the island.

I don't really. But, I mean, the island. The idea of the island's kind of appealing.

Well, what did the nightmare island always adds mystique.

Yeah, it adds a mystique. Had a private island.

What are they doing out there doing that?

People would fly out there. I think they were probably out there just eating chicken wings and, you know, rich. Being rich. And it was probably quite boring.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Unless there was a group of dudes, because I've been around some real rich people. And you start, you know, a lot of them do, like, they'll go on like these kind of sex kind of really romps and tours. Nothing with.

I've heard that and about some of the tech CEO's that they get together.

They go to Romania or just different places.

Shoot backpackers, like in hostel.

Oh, yeah. I haven't heard that.

But I hunt humans because everything else is too tame for them at that point.

Oh, I would believe it, though. I'd believe that that goes on somewhere.

The.

They don't value a lot some people at certain levels. I don't value human life at all.

I don't think the scary part is like, it's a bit like squid game. If you got like a hundred desperate people, like if they were addicted to Carfentan or something. And you said like, when are you gonna, you're all gonna be hunted. Of the hundred of you, maybe three are gonna get shot and killed, but the rest of you will make a great, like a really big paycheck. You would probably not have any trouble finding guys to agree, don't you think?

100%.

I mean, in a way, it's kind of like what boxing is in a way, because they're saying like, you're good, you're gonna get brain damage, probably. Or a lot of you are, but you'll get a great payday.

Yeah.

And you can, until you're about 50, you probably won't notice a lot of the side effects. I'm not trying to be down on boxing. I've got boxes. But we all know that, you know, there's a brain, you know, brain side effects.

Yeah. No, man. Just interesting to think about stuff, you know, it is.

And, and did you ever get to.

Meet Michael Jackson or.

No, I shook his hand.

He did?

Yeah.

What did his hand feel like?

Very soft.

Hmm.

He. I made a film. It was the only time.

I think you made a documentary about something about.

Yeah, it was called Louie and Michael, or I louis. Michael and Martin. It was around the time Martin Bashir was doing his interview and I was trying to get an interview. It's the only time I've done one where it was in search of. So I didn't get that close. But I did interview Joe. Joe was his dad, the one who he said messed with his head. The one who, because Joe would call him all kinds of names that later on people alleged that was part of why he got his surgery, because he would call him pepper nose. He said his nose? No, I'm not going to do an impression of Joe. That's a bridge too far.

But he was. He just, like.

He was kind of a bully.

Yeah.

And then Martin Bashir got fired. He was the guy who did the interview with Princess Diana. Do you know all of that? And then turned out he got it on false pretenses by forging a document. And that was why Princess Diana. Princess Diana thought the intelligence services were snooping on her. Her. Based on that. So she agreed to do an interview with Martin Bashir. There's majestic, magnificent. So he was Michael's, um, personal magician.

Wow. So that right there.

So you could say, like, what? That's the best you could do was talk to his magician. But you could also say, like, well, who has a magician? That's pretty cool to have a personal magician?

And God, he must have been just so broken hearted or in so much self pity. He also. And broken hearted who, Michael? Yeah. Or something just wrong. Deranged with him yet have a personal magician you need.

Ali had a personal magician.

Oh, he did.

Same guy, I think. Or maybe. Maybe it wasn't his personal. I mean, I. He lived with the Jackson's. It's. I could never quite.

Is this guy still alive?

He's dead, sadly. He was a good magician. Look at that. Do you see that?

Mm hmm.

And then Joe, my thing with. I thought I said to Joe, what's going on with Michael? You know, the angle I went in, one was like, he looks like he needs help. Like, he seems. He seems. He's a brilliant artist, but he seems troubled. He's taking surgery. The surgery too far. And I don't see a healthy relationship in his life. And, in fact, the relationships he did have, have, you know, with Lisa Marie Presley and what was the.

Oh, Debbie Rowe.

Debbie Rowe was the other one.

Yeah.

Who was his. He was sure was, like, the receptionist for his dermatologist, Arnie Klein. I think that's right. Anyway, I was like, what's going on? What? Wouldn't you like to see Michael? And this was the slightly troll like thing I did, although maybe not. I said, don't you want to see Michael happy? Like, settled in a. You know, in a consenting and happy relationship with a man or woman?

Hmm.

And what did he say? I think I said, boyfriend. A boyfriend or girlfriend? He said, boyfriend. I was like, yeah, boyfriend or girlfriend? Boyfriend. And then he went off. He said, you saying Michael's gay? You saying Michael's gay now? And then they kind of went off and freaked out that I might have suggested that he's homosexual, that he was a gay man. He was a homosexual man. He could have been, I think, probably like, if he'd had. If he'd been able to channel his sexual energy into consenting relationships with men who've been fine, then, you know, it's all good. I mean, a lot, I think of some pedophiles, when you meet them, like the guys at Coalinga, they're not the most attractive men. Right. What a surprise. And actually, when I've met pedophiles, I've interviewed them also doing prison sentences at San Quentin. And a lot of times you feel like, okay, these are guys who have socially maladapted, who, for them, like to have sex with. I don't mean to belittle it or, like, in any way trivialize it, but that's just an opportunity for them, because children are weak and easily influenced. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, no, it does. It's. Yeah, it's like some people prey on women that are weak and easily influenced. Some people prey on whatever they can that's weak and easily influenced, or whatever they're able to assert themselves on.

It's like, you know, heartbreaking. Yeah.

We had a decent amount of pedophiles in our area. Not enough to make a softball team or anything, but we certainly. They certainly had a group of them around.

Was it known in those days we called them dirty old men. Right. And it was called stranger danger. And it was dirty men. And don't talk to strangers. Or they were called flashes.

Oh, yeah.

You know what that is?

Oh, yeah. I saw flash once at a wine store when I was a kid, my uncle dropped me off at a wine store and a woman flashed me.

There's a woman?

Yeah.

And what did you. How old were you? Probably twelve, but I remember. And were you upset by it?

I don't know. It was kind of like, by some. I mean, I've had a affinity for Cabernet ever since. I know that, you know, for sure.

Dude, what does that mean?

I don't know. Just. I remember being in this wine store, and if somebody brings up a damn cabernet.

Right.

Because, you know.

Wine store winner.

Yeah. I mean, she just. And I just didn't. And my uncle was driving me after, and I told him. And he went back to the wine store to look for the lady, dude, what a fucking pervert.

Because he wanted to see.

Sure. He's a pervert, dude. His wife was on pills, too.

What was she wearing?

Just a kind of a coat or something and nothing on.

Was she a customer in the store? She worked there.

I didn't look and see if she had a receipt or anything on her. I know she was not, I don't think she did not seem like an employee. So I think she was just somebody traveling around showing her body to children, you know.

Did you like it?

I was pretty.

Were you confused by it?

Mmm.

Were you upset?

I don't think I was upset. I think I was like, all right then. Oh well. Oh, well, hello. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know if I, you know what I felt like now? That I really, I felt like I didn't know if I was supposed to do something. Like am I supposed to do something now and then I felt like I didn't respond quick enough to maybe if I was supposed to do something. And then I felt bad about myself.

A cousin of mine was, he was, this is his story to tell, but I'll tell it anyway. He was in Washington, DC. Not that that matters.

Oh, there's a lot of pedophiles and.

A guy called him over to his cardinal, him and his friend. I guess they would have been maybe eleven or twelve. And the guy was in his car and he was exposing himself in his lap. But you know, things happened quick and it was so decontextualized. My cousin thought that he was showing him his gerbil. So he was like, oh, that's nice. Like that's cute. And then they went off and then afterwards they were like, hang on, that wasn't a gerbil. But you just wonder whether that was the reaction the guy was hoping for, you know, that's nice. Or whether he would have preferred. They were a little freaked out.

Yeah. What the fuck? They, I call my penis a gerbil.

Yeah. What an, in a way, like that was the best reaction because I'm not, you know, I didn't phase him.

Yeah.

I had a guy come up to me once and he was, this was when I was twelve and it was, I was outside a wh Smith in Putney and I, he's like, and I used to like smiling at older people. I thought, I just thought it was.

Yeah, you're supposed to do it. Yeah.

And like, you know, they're nice and you're nice and sometimes they'll give you a little bit of money. Like here's ten p for being a good boy. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, for sure. He's like butterscotch or something.

Yeah, go get yourself some sweets. And then you go, oh, I can't take that. Yes you can. Yes you can.

My family's all dead.

Yeah. I would go and take ten. Here's another 20 p and go buy yourself some sweets. But this guy, I smiled at him and he said, I bet you've got a big one. I said, I still smile because I hadn't taken it in. I said, I bet you've got a big one with lots of hairs on.

Oh.

And I smiled and then I went off, and then I was like. And, yeah, I was quite upset by it.

We used to have a dude, he'd give you $10, right? And he would. He'd be like 40ft away. He would show you his butt all. And all you had to do is look at it.

Yeah.

And you got the $10, isn't it?

It's a lot of money, too.

I thought it was a crazy amount of money. We're like, come back tomorrow.

How long would he be standing there for? It was just a quick, like, okay. Or how did you know when he'd.

Finished, he wasn't touching himself? He would kind of bend over and pull his buttocks apart.

Yeah.

And that's how he would see us. And make sure that we were looking through your legs. Through his legs, yeah, and we would kind of.

Through his legs.

He would show us his butthole.

Yeah, yeah, I got it. Yeah.

And you'd have to just do that. And then. Yeah, you got to get $10.

So I had a.

We had a lot of gays that would drug induced homosexuality in our area. And it was. They would happen behind, like, the rest areas along the interstate. And the men back there would get. Get in the river back there and make out and be high on drugs.

Were they. Were they doing it for the drugs or were they already gay?

I think it was a mix.

It was a big mix because it.

Seemed like guys that maybe all that.

Stuff'S fluid, like guys in prison. Right. And then you're like, well, you know, there's no gay men in prison, really. I mean, they're all gay. You know, there's no straight on how you look. Yeah.

Right. It's like, yeah, you might be in, you know, Sherwood for, you know, or where did Christopher Robin live? What was that place called?

Sherwood Forest. Oh, Robin Hood. Robin Hood.

You might be in the hundred acre wood.

Oh, 100 acre wood. Okay.

Yeah. But you might not be a, you know. I don't know. I had a good analogy. I can't figure it out.

But the. I went to the doctor once because my bum was itchy, and it was. A few weeks went by, and then it was still itchy. And I was like, this is weird. Like, I. I don't know. Maybe there's something wrong with it. You know, you google it. And I couldn't find it. So I went to the doctor and I said, I've got a very itchy bubble. And he's. I think he was french. But he said, I'll take a look at it. And then he looked at it, and then. That's already quite embarrassing.

Oh, the worst.

And then I had the strong impression that he thought there was nothing. He couldn't see anything wrong with it. So I had the strong impression he thought I was just doing it for thrills. And then what am I supposed to do about. He said, I can't see anything. I said, okay, well. Well, thanks for taking a look. It was such an unsatisfactory interview.

Oh, of course. And you can't call later and be like, hey, can you let me talk to that guy again?

Apologize.

Yeah, I just want to say, hey, look, man, there was nothing weird because then that's weird. It's so hard to follow up.

Have you ever had testicle problems where they have to look at your balls and then.

No, I had erection problems where they would, like, shoot this stuff into your wiener to see if it worked good or not. And it works immediately. But literally, the guys, like, with a needle just right near Weiner. And it is harrowing, dude.

Why did you. Do you know why you had that?

Just a lot of stage fright. Just fright from being a kid. Just in constant nervousness, you know? And it would just like, um. Yeah, that was harrowing, dude.

So they just needed to find out that it worked.

They want to know that it, like, the inner. The ballast tanks or whatever work, you know, and so they would shoot it up and you're like, oh, it works. So it's in my head, it's not in my body, you know?

And was it okay after that?

Yeah, it was hit or miss for a couple years, but it got better. Past few years, it's gotten better. Just, you get older, things wear off. Even, like, you're saying, like, your desire, all that confusion, all the fucking. You don't know. The paint comes off the car and you're like, all right, yeah, we'll just keep driving it.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Some porn performers use that, you know.

Yeah. Shooting them up.

Shoot. Yeah, they shoot it up, like, because that works every time and it's quick.

Oh. Oh, I wouldn't. I would hate that, though.

They used to. I don't think they do. I think now the porn industry is so, like, it's all onlyfans and private people and the big set where there's pressure on and people standing around. I did a documentary way back, one of the first episodes of my series, weird weekends, and we followed a young guy called JJ on his first big shoot. And I'd read a lot about how people get anxiety, and. And then everyone's standing around thinking, like, we can't shoot anything until you basically.

JJ gets ready to rock.

Get wood. That's the term. And so. And we were like, we're gonna be there filming. Okay. JJ and I didn't mean really to put a hex on him, but because of the nature of documentary filmmaking, you sort of slightly. I don't know if even hoping is a strong word, but you are aware that you're going to. If you get. You're gonna get a better scene if. If he fails to get wood. And there he was. And he couldn't get.

Couldn't get it.

Yeah.

Oh, is he talking to it? That's the worst when you start talking to your own pain.

He was kind of. I don't think he was talking to it, but I remember a lot of the people. He was trying to get something going, and it was just not happening.

God, I've been there.

What a nightmare.

And, you know, but nothing on the line. Like, he had something.

That's him more recently. I saw him again. He lives in the. He was living in Ukraine then, I think five years ago, maybe four years. But back then, he was. He made very, like. He was telling me about his techniques, and he'd done three scenes, and this was his first. He was like, he didn't want to mess up on his first big studio shoot.

It was his first big one.

Yeah. It was a sad situation.

That's a tough go. There was one thing I wanted to ask you about before we leave. Oh, they just had a social media band. They wanted to put a social media disclaimer. I was looking at this. I want to see what you thought about this. Louie. Can you see that in the news articles? There's a social media surgeon general's warning on social media. Can you.

Oh, I heard about this. Yeah. Is that here or in America? Or both?

Not sure.

They're basically campaigning to put a surgeon's advisory or a kind of health warning. A surgeon general demands warning label on social media apps, and they're trying to make it more sort of childproof so that actually 13 year old, because you can get it. Like, my eight year old got on TikTok when we weren't paying attention, we were on holiday, he started a TikTok account, and then he was going viral. We didn't even know what was going on.

Right.

We were just in a restaurant in Greece, you know, talking about this and that. We thought he was just playing on his iPad or something. And then the next morning, like, they came down. They're like, he's gone. My older kids were like, he's gone viral on his TikTok. And there was a picture, and he filmed himself going, blah, blah, blah, making a weird, like, he obviously liked seeing himself. So he's opening, closing his mouth, and he goes, I like, roblox was making a shape with his mouth, and then for some reason, and it kind of lit up. TikTok. I don't know why. Yeah, I guess you don't see many eight year olds on there, right?

No, I don't think so. Yeah, you're like, who gave him this? How did he do it?

Giving him bad reviews?

Oh, yeah.

And I'm like, he was. You was getting, like, tens, tens of thousands, you know, like, more than a lot of stuff gets on tv.

Yeah.

And, and people would say. And then one guy was like, don't harsh on the guy. He'd just be van, like, kind of defending, defending his. His. In his integrity and, and the quality of his content.

That's crazy. Kid just started.

He just, he was only his, like, third post. But I'm also thinking, you know, it's like having a portal in your pocket, like, or in your front room. I. You know, if you've ever. If you have, like, a million or a couple of million social media followers and then you have a few drinks, it's kind of. I often think it's a bit like if you had a balcony outside your front room and you could wander out, and any time there's 2 million people standing outside, so you could go out there, and I'm gonna show them my wiener. You know, like, you could do anything.

Yeah, I'm gonna show them and tell them what's up right now.

Yeah, I got a great joke. This is funny. Like, you couldn't. And that's a horrendous. I accidentally, like, also, there's famous people in your phone, and you go, like, okay, siri. Or you use the thing and you go, beep, beep. And, like, I'm gonna send a text to Bill Clinton. You know, to me, like, I don't have his name, but some famous person. Right. And you're one thumb click away from sending something crazy. Saying something crazy.

And what if it started to do it? What if it started just like, you know what? Fuck these people. Yeah, whatever.

It's.

I mean, we're already calling it an algorithm. We're already calling it artificial intelligence.

Inappropriate. I'm gonna. I'm not gonna call it anybody. But kids take. They think it's funny to do inappropriate stuff.

Yeah.

That's part of being a kid, that they have a bomb together and they. Maybe they. Even if you. They have a phone and they think it's fun. Like, they take a picture of. Maybe one of them takes a picture of his younger brother naked or something. I'm speaking hypothetically, of course. Maybe they zoom in on his. We know his willie. They think it's fun, like, because they can show it to you or like, to their, you know, something like. But then one click, like they have your social media account. They put it.

Horace.

Yeah, put that on social media.

Now you're a pedia file and you'll go to jail.

Not even joking. Right? That would be. I'd be put in prison for that.

And who, what court is gonna believe. Oh, yeah, I didn't. My son took a picture of his brother's weiner and then he posted it. Exactly like your four year old son did.

Yeah, exactly.

It's just that's at the risk.

And then one thing like that is career, potentially career ending.

And what if the actual owners of these corporate, if they wanted to, they could just post something on your fucking account?

They can hack into your ever. You're clicking all those. What are the terms and conditions? You know, you take the one in Samsung, it was like, you have the permission to listen to everything I say.

Yeah.

Do you remember in the smart tv and they were stockpiling everything? You said their only get out was, oh, we're not listening to it. We'll only listen to it if you get into trouble. Like if the president thinks you're a spy or a terrorist. But other than that, don't worry, we're just collecting it like, oh, fine, then. Right? I think that's still going. That isn't even a conspiracy theory of. I don't think.

Oh, I don't know. Did Samsung. Can you bring that up, man? Well, you know what? One of my beliefs is that a lot of porno pornography sites are able to record you while you're watching pornography.

Yes.

So that's how a lot of these people get compromised, I think for all types of things is because they have video of everybody.

Your tv's spying on you, but you could stop it on newer.

Samsung says go to settings support. Scroll down to terms and policies. Here you can turn off viewing information services, Internet based advertising.

Stop it. Yeah, but tell me how many people are going to click through all the menus to figure out.

I just read how to do it and I'm still not going to do it.

Exactly. You don't even read the bit. That's like quick start. Here's the thing. You just like put the batteries in and if you can't figure it out with, you know, on its own, then you get someone else to figure out.

You assume it doesn't work. Well, even with having a child. People will have a child, not even read anything about them and just take it home from the fucking hospital.

Yeah, yeah, big time. There's no manual, but you should do some research.

You should do some research.

They're not spying on you, though. Well, maybe they are. That's when you know you're fully schizophrenic, is when you think your children are.

Oh, yeah. There's a. Shane Moss is a great comedian who, he's like a. He'd done a lot of psychedelics and he wanted to do a documentary while he was on psychedelics, but as he was taking them, he got like further and further down the whole of them and he started to think that the camera crew that he'd hired was spying and working against him. So now he started leaving clues to the camera crew. So whoever would be watching this on the other side would be able to come and help him.

But to be fair, it would be quite normal. That sounds quite normal to think that, like, I don't fully, fully, fully trust any crew, any team I work with. You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

Because if you did something like. Like horrific in a weird way, you would expect them to expose you. Right, right.

There's a part of them that would you hopefully that hope that they would.

They caught you. They were doing a documentary about you and you did. They caught you looking at animal porn or something.

Yeah.

Then maybe that's a better story and maybe they're. They should be like thinking about, we need to do this, like uncover. Suddenly their allegiance changes. It's no longer about morning sex. Right. The document about mornings is this is more. We did go to like 60 minutes and think we have Theo von looking at animal pornography, extreme animal porn.

Well, so you can just go to any dog park and watch it for a little bit. It's not the close ups you want.

Or David Attenborough right. That's basically what nature programs are.

Oh, the snowfinch. Did you meet him?

I have met him. I interviewed him. Not for tv, but for a magazine. Yeah.

What a voice of the time.

Soon it will die. It will be weeks before it feeds again. I learned a lot from how sparing he is. Like, he uses the minimal, minimum amount of words in his voiceover. It's winter. The prawns are feeding. Soon they will die. You know, like, it's just. He just doesn't say anything extra. And there'll be some little rye and then time for a nap. You know, like, you just throw it a little. Kind of, like a little bit of light irony. There he is. Yeah. That was when I still had my beard. Look at that. That was peak me, when I had, like, a beard. I had a little gray. It was. That was probably right. The beginning of, like, I was two years before the rot set in.

And you met Nancy then?

I was with Nancy. She got to. At least she got to be with me during the, you know, the golden years.

That's what counts, man.

Yeah.

Well, you have a love in your life. That's nice, man.

Oh, yeah. Very much so. I feel very lucky, Louie.

Thank you so much, man, oh, man.

It's a real privilege. I really feel it's a thrill being here. For real.

Yeah, it's really been nice, Mandy. I just. So many people were fascinated that we were gonna be able to have you hang out with us. And so a lot of women, too. Loads. For real, loads of women. Don't tell Nancy.

No, that's. That's nice to hear that. It's nice to be. What's the word? Like, obviously, I'm not on the menu, but. Or I'm on the menu, but I'm not in stock or I don't know what.

The market price is very high.

The chef doesn't make that anymore, unfortunately, but maybe for special occasions.

There we go. I love you.

No, that's a joke. I'm fully.

No, that's a joke, Nancy. And you enjoy your crisps, miss. Yes, you. I'm sure you're a lovely lady and hopefully get to meet you one day. Louie, thank you so much for your time. Your podcast every week is just the Louis Theroux podcast.

The Louis Theroux podcast. Yeah. On Spotify. And tell them you love me is on Netflix.

And tell them you love me is really, really. It's really. It's crazy. There's a lot of little things I felt during it. I was like, man, do I feel this. What am I know? Here. It was cool.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Shout out Nick August Perna. I mentioned him. Enjoy the rest of your stay.

Will do, man. Yeah, I'm gonna do my best. And I'll let you know next time I come in town, man. I have to catch up on your part next time.

That would be nice. Yeah. We'll return. Would be a reciprocal deal. I'd love to have you on me.

That's very fair, man. Um. Thank you for your time, brother.

Thank you for yours.

Now I'm just floating on the breeze? And I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone? Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this peace of mind I found? I can feel it, my bones but it's gonna take a little.