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This is not Without My Sister. The podcast where two sisters from Kildare, Ireland, now live in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and have lots of things to do with their time, but decided to do a podcast instead. We talk about the time Beatrice got kidnapped by a man who looked like Santa, and then tried to squeeze her into his ex-wife's poochy pants to no avail, and not to be outdone the time that Rosemarie dawned her best Game of Thrones larping costume, and showed up on some unsuspecting handsome boy's doorway. It was not even that handsome.

I'm trying to woo him This and more can be yours, not without my sister.

Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including In the News from the Irish Times, Irish History podcast, and the one you're listening to right now. This podcast contains content that may be upsetting to some listeners. Before continuing, please prioritize your own wellbeing and mental health. Please check the show notes for more detailed descriptions of the episodes. In the year 2000, as the Olympic Games put Australia in the global spotlight, a different but equally meaningful story was unfolding in Melbourne's northern suburbs. Helen Ioannidis and her daughters, having escaped from the turmoil of Libya, were starting anew in Australia. Away from the excitement and fanfare of the world's greatest sporting event in Sydney, this was their chance for a fresh start down under. Episode 3, Australian soil. Helen would eventually secure a modest townhouse through social housing located within a small community of five units on Seston Street. Two other young mothers had also recently moved into the rear townhouses next door with their children.

The two front units were standing by themselves, just single units. The three at the back, I was in the middle, so ours were joined. So her wall was my wall, and then I had my carport, and then it was Helen's. We were all still very close. So we always said if something was to happen, fire or an emergency, because we're in townhouses, the kids to climb out on the roof and go to the... And get down safely because we didn't want the kids to jump or if they couldn't come downstairs because they weren't really fire-safe proof units.

Although there was an adjustment period getting used to the freedoms Australia now offered, Helen found solace in the place she was turning into her own and the friendship she was building with her closest neighbor, Kaz.

Being half Greek myself, and she was Greek, and two daughters, and I had the kids myself herself just clicked straight away. We love gardening and cooking, and she was a wonderful mom, and she told me a bit about her story. I told her a bit about my life story, and unfortunately, that brought us a bit closer together.

Louisa would have only been around 14 years old during her first year at Seston Street, although the other kids living there were much younger. Together, the mothers made their little corner of the Melbourne northern suburbs their own. It wasn't much, but it was theirs.

She had She had really bad asthma. She wanted the whole house to be really fresh, ready for when they moved in. She put a lot of effort in. She had the house painted and your carpet.

As she continued to settle into a routine, Helen took up work as a cleaner. As a chronic asthmatic, the work was detrimental to her health, but she was determined not to let this restrict her from making an income and provide for her family. Her son, Tess, worried about her, but he knew there was nothing he could do.

Whenever she came home from a hard days of work, she would get on the ventilator. Most of the times when I visited her, you'd see her on it. Wherever she went, the machine went. I remember, it was just a loud machine.

I think just her ambition was, let's just take every opportunity. Don't fall into these habits that might not get you anywhere in life.

Juggling her work and raising two young daughters was already a challenge, compounded by the lingering horrors of their recent experiences in Libya. For Tess, though, he was just overjoyed to have his mother back home safe.

Whenever she would visit me, she would just come and we'd have a laugh. In the period that she'd come and visit me, there'd be about four or five phone calls, especially from the little ones. Mom, where are you? Mom, mom. They wouldn't leave her alone. My God, you were just on top of her. Just crazy. She just couldn't do anything. They couldn't do anything for themselves, either. And then she's like, you see, she'll have to deal with. How do you expect me to do my own thing, to come and live with you or do something? Because she should come and she would obviously complain and have a bit of a... She'd vent of the hardships with the girls, that they were just out of control and they just wouldn't listen and all that stuff. So there was many times that I would get involved in trying to be the father figure that they didn't have. But the girls were so damaged psychologically that they needed help, too.

The adjustment was undeniably challenging, but the then-teanage Louisa seemed to take it all in her stride, as a family friend puts it.

When they came back, the girls, when Helen brought the girls back, Louisa adapted really well and very quick, but the younger girl didn't adapt. There was always complications. There was always complexities.

But while safe in Australia, Helen couldn't shake off the trauma of nearly losing her children in Libya. This experience profoundly influenced her parenting style, resulting in a strict upbringing for Louisa and her sister.

Me and my other friend, we could go to each other's house as much as we wanted and sit in each other's rooms as much as we wanted and do all of that stuff, be friends. But with her, she'd have a strict time limit. I can come for an hour and a half, and that's it. Her mom would drop her off, and that was it, and pick her up.

This is Louise's school friend who we will refer to by the alias Indigo. They met in year nine, around 2002, when they were both 15 years old. Their friendship blossomed quickly, and they became like sisters, spending most afternoons together at each other's homes.

There weren't a lot of European girls in our year level, and there weren't a lot of girls that smoked. And then the conversation started with, Where do you smoke? You smoke on the oval, you smoke in the toilets. And naturally, she would gravitate to where we were smoking, and then we would talk. We had a lot of commonality with the European background. My mother was Turkish, her father was Libyan, so it was mixed race type of household and stuff like that. And then we just clicked and hung out every day. She was new to the school, and that was it. Just from there, we just always hung around.

Louisa often sought refuge from her strict home life by spending time at Indigo's house. They would gossip, sing along to pop songs, and talk about boys.

Louisa. How are you, darling?

I'm all right.

Taira?

I'm fine.

First thing in the freaking morning.

While we speak, Indigo starts playing treasured old videos she's kept of Louisa. They are a collection of different times they were together at her house, sometimes hanging out in the lounge or sitting in Indigo's bedroom, chatting away like any other 15-year-olds.

One thing about her, she had a big personality. She was very loud and proud. And she spoke like back then. It's so shameful, but we used to speak like real Maria's, as they call them, real Europeans, and call each other Bro, and stuff like that. If my daughter spoke like that, I'd probably be cringing. But it is. It's cringe when I hear it now, even some of the videos I have of us when we're talking. It's just cringe. But she was very loud, but very happy and very fun. Very, very fun.

In this piece of old footage, you'll hear an example of 15-year-old Indigo and Louisa speaking, as Indigo puts it, like Maria's.

They are saying that heaps of guys start shit about her.

No, no. I do nothing, and they talk shit. Seriously, I'm fed up with this bullshit. I've got nothing else to say, so they make up my like, yes.

My like, yes? Yeah, exactly.

What'd they say, bro? First, no. I don't know what the fuck he said, but he said that I full-on kiss him and he just picked me on the fucking lips.

Well, I haven't-You don't even know what he said, bro.

He could have said-Yeah, exactly. I I don't even know what he said.

That could just be shit, staring.

What is striking in these videos is that while Indigo and another girlfriend are seen wearing what you'd expect to allow him to get home, track pants and no makeup, Louisa is impeccably dressed, wearing large decorative earrings, perfect makeup, and her long hair styled without a strand out of place.

This is the 10 o'clock wake-up call. We used to always hang out with Bam. One of his eyes, I'd start to hear...

I'm joking because I don't even want to leave her.

She She's always so glamorous, isn't she?

She is, yeah. She's beautiful. But if you look at the photos of her now, that's when she was younger. She was always very voluptuous. But then when you saw her years later, she was thin.

Rake thin. Despite her mother's attempts to keep her shouted, Louisa had already experienced more than most Australians twice her age. She was streetwise, fluent in three languages, and mature beyond her years. And And yet, for all her worldly experience, Louisa could be surprisingly naive at times, a trait that would continue to catch up with her.

I think that that's where all the trouble started with her and her mom, that Louisa was really strong-willed. Louisa thought, No, I'm old enough. I can go. And she would. She would leave school a bit early and go to the shops. And then that would cause trouble because her mom wouldn't know where to find her, essentially. And then she'd come home, and then she'd get in trouble.

As she got older, Louisa's teenage years continued to be a constant battle between her desire for independence and her mother's protective instincts.

She knew a lot of things that even I didn't know myself. For her age, she was quite mature in that sense. She wanted to do her own thing. She was strong-willed. She thought, No, I can go out, and I can do this. I think that her and her mom clashed a lot over that. But in saying that, sometimes Louisa made really stupid choices. She knew she was going to caught doing something, but she'd still do it because at the time, she wanted to do it. That was one thing about Louise. When she did get caught doing something, we'd say, Well, why did you do that if you knew you were going to get caught? She'd say, I don't know. I don't know. She was very-Do you think it was a sense of freedom from rebellion against her Libian day? Yeah, I do.

Indigo still cherishes memories of sitting in Louise's bedroom, singing along to popular artists of that time. They were particularly drawn to music that celebrated generated strong, independent women.

We listened to R&B a lot. Pop, yeah, back then. Anastasia, Britney Spears. We weren't really into the dance, dance music or anything, but I think R&B was the flavor. When we're in year nine, year 10.

I'm a big Brittany fan.

Yes, Brittany came out a lot. Yeah, definitely. And a lot of music that was about... Women empowerment, I think, was our biggest one. You'll get over him and boy She'll never be me and stuff like that. So we'll ride into that stuff.

At the age of 16, Louisa and her friends started discussing a new topic, her crush on a particular boy.

She had met Joe, and she really liked him. She was infatuated with him, but he was the type of guy. He was older, I think. He was older. He was driving, actually. Yeah, he was older. He would go out with Louisa, and then he would, back then, to have a mobile and credit to ring someone, he wouldn't answer his phone, or his phone would be off for weeks, and then he would ring her, and then they'd catch up. It wasn't a frequent thing. It was like a flying with Joe. He wasn't around often, but she just really, really liked him from what I knew. We would go out, and guys used to just fall on her. She was so pretty. Guys used to love her, and she had a personality where she could really get along with anyone. There were so many good-looking guys with nice cars that liked her, but for some reason, she would be talking to one of them. Jo would come back on the scene, she'd disappear.

We will be back after a short break. Enjoy your holiday, Tim.

Enjoy your holiday, Tim.

Summer holidays don't last long. Neither will our boiler offer. Get 20% off your annual service when you Book with Bored Gosh Energy before July 31st and give your boiler the efficiency boost it needs. But remember, 20% off won't last long. Book online at Bored Gosh Energy. Ie. Terms and conditions apply. You're going to hear a bit about Joe in this podcast, and while this is the name everyone knows him by, it's not his birth name. As Indigo and I kept chatting, she kept showing me clips from her collection of old videos. In one video, Louisa is discussing a compliment given to her by another boy she'd been talking with. This moment in time may have seemed insignificant then. Looking back, it's clear how easily she caught the attention of guys her age.

Do you know how I was wearing her Cougour top? Still got that at home. Sorry, still bring it for you. It sounds like Cougour, it says Cuba. Cuba, and it's got number 19. He goes to me, You should be not number 19, you should be number one. I'm going to be prepared for about two seconds.

All right, by the way, let's go make this coffee.

Yeah, we're going to coffee.

What we also learned from these home videos is that at this time, Joe was very much in Louisa's life. Even though they didn't talk all that often, it was obvious Louisa would light up whenever she heard from him.

Hi, everyone. How are you doing? Why are you happy, Louie? Why are you happy? I found out the best news there. Joe's alive. Joe's alive. Yeah. He was being around on the phone. I go, Hey, where are you? He goes, I'm at work. I'm busy with customers. I'm like, All right, can you give me a call later? And he's like, Yeah, I'll call you tonight.

And with each call from Joe, Louisa's desire to see him intensified. As much as she loved her mother and everything that she had done for her, she also couldn't escape the desire to make her own choices. As a way to be with Joe and to avoid concerns from her mother, Louisa started skipping school to spend time with him instead. At first, she was able to get away with this, but eventually, her mother discovered the truth. During this period, even her brother Tess struggled to speak with Louisa.

There were times in the early days that our relationship wasn't great because I had to step in and then try and be the father figure and try and give him some guidance. It was only so much that they could tolerate.

As tension between mother and daughter reached a breaking point, a decision was made for Louisa to move in with Indigo for a period of time.

The reason that she lived with me was because she was having a lot of trouble with her mom, and she kept on taking off and coming back. Then she ended up coming to my house, and she didn't want to go home. My mom ended up speaking to her mom and saying, Look, she's here, because Louise was saying, I'm just going to get such and such to pick me up. My mom said, Hold your horses. She said, She's here. This is what's going on. Helen had expressed, She's just going to go anyway. Then my mother said, Well, if I can get her to stay here, what are your thoughts? She said, If you can get her to go to school and you can get her to stay there, let her stay there. That's how it started. She stayed with me for, I want to say, near three months, maybe a little bit longer. Yeah, but she did. She went to school and we were always together. She didn't really go. Obviously, the friends changed because she was hanging around the people we were hanging around. She saw us more frequently. But then towards the end of the three and a half months, she wanted to go out with certain people that my mom didn't want her to go out with.

It was starting to get like my mom was trying to start pushing rules or enforcing rules that she said, I'm just going to go back home because she was getting away with more. Then she went back home. You can't stop her from going home.

With Louisa back home and entering year 11, she made a concerted effort to focus on her studies and be less distracted by her social life. There were positive signs she was back on track as her relationship with Joe ended and the bond with her mother began to repair. Being fluent in three languages, there was even a career path Louisa had shown interest in.

.

I just want you to be a free country.

All right, Louisa is translating. A free country because... So they'll be saying it's a country.

So how do you understand?

Kaz even recalls discussing career options with Louisa.

I said, Oh, that's really good to be an interpreter. I said, That's a good job. Very professional. I always said, I can see you walking in with your business power suit and helping people because she had that look.

As the routine of school life continued, it wasn't long before Louisa once again felt a growing desire to explore the wider world and experiment with gateway substances such as alcohol.

Reality TV, this is Louisa on the couch, passed out, and I think she woke up and looked at her. And we'll just stop. Let's just not throwing her. All right, have a good day. Bye-bye.

During this adolescent exploration stage, many school friends, including her best friend Indigo, lost touch with Louisa. But Helen never gave up on her daughter and did whatever she could to try and engage with her. This included seeking out advice from her contacts within the Greek community. Nurse Helen is a friend of the family and a forensic psychiatric nurse. In her role, she would often be interviewed by journalists on the radio about a variety of health-related topics, including substance abuse and the signs parents should look out for in their children.

When I first met Helen, she approached me and she was quite... She just didn't know what to do because Louisa will be running away. She wouldn't be going to school. She'll be displaying really odd behaviors, outbursts because she was withdrawing or she didn't have substances. The school had contacted Helen and explained to her that things aren't right with Louisa. She's missing days off. That's when she heard something on the Greek radio, and she contacted me. She contacted the radio, and then I got in contact with her. Then she told me her story. She told me exactly what had happened with the girls, how they were kidnapped, and it was just awful. She goes, I just don't know what to do.

Grateful for the initial advice Nurse Helen provided, Helen took note of her contact information and made sure to save it for future reference. Rather than completing her final school year, Louisa chose to leave and enter the workforce. She picked up odd jobs along the way, but nothing really lasted. Leaving school opened up a new world of experiences for her, including nightclubbing, dating other boys, and an introduction to party drugs. She moved out of home and into a share home near Chapel Street, South Yara, a location at the epicenter of the party scene. Other friends also fondly recall Louisa's Wild Street during this time.

Sometimes she was probably the naughtiest. She smoked or she pushed us a little bit more to do stuff. She always wanted to go out to clubs and hang out with guys and probably spearheaded me having my first kiss or stuff like that. They were really into it. I can't remember. I feel like we used to go to a club called Gamma Bar, which was a Greek bar.

Helen was overwhelmed, uncertain about her daughter's whereabouts, companions, and activities. The situation took a severe turn when she received a call from the police station asking her to pick up Louisa, who had been arrested for a late night altercation with another woman. Having remembered Nurse Helen's name from many years ago, Louisa's mother reached out to her again in a panic.

She contacted me again via the Greek radio and said, I'm having problems with my eldest daughter. I think she's using substances. Could you please either come and meet me or talk to my daughter? I did meet with them at Northlands. By seeing Louisa straight away, she was definitely using substances. I could tell, and she didn't deny it to me, but she told me that her mother just carries on and et cetera, et cetera. I clearly said to her, I remember this clearly. I said, Look, I understand. Your mom doesn't understand. But at the end of the day, what you're doing is only going to turn into a disaster. I know what I'm doing. I said, But at the moment, I said, Can you see your behavior is not normal? No, but my Kate relaxes me.

So she admitted to drugs?

Yeah, she admitted. At that time, she was using cannabis amfetamines. She was using speed because at that time, she said, Speed helps you lose weight. Then When she couldn't get speed, she will go to a doctor and get juramide.

The combined efforts of a criminal charge for assault and an intervention led by her mother seemed to have a positive effect. Following her court-ordered After volunteer work at a Greek Welfare Center, Louisa received a glowing reference and even moved back home. But what goes up must eventually come down, and after a period of staying on track, Louisa once again reunited with Joe, much to the disappointment of her mother. By now, Helen knew Joe's reappearance would likely lead her daughter astray, and once again, she witnessed Louisa spending more nights away from home with her concerns deepening. Even Cas remembers Helen sharing her dismay about Joe to her.

Helen came to me one day and she's like, Oh, God. He's just met this boy, but he's more like a man. I said, Oh, love, what's going on? She goes, I can tell he's no good. He's rotten, and he's no good. I said, What do you mean? She goes, Just my guts. I said, Okay, well, if he comes, we're all here. I'm pulling my hair out here, she goes, What am I meant to do? Either I let him come so I can still be a bit in control of the situation. I said, I understand that reasoning. You don't want Louisa leaving with him all the time. But if it's causing you stress, She goes, I don't want him in my house, but I don't want to lose my daughter. I said, I totally get it. Worst not me.

In a dramatic step, Helen went so far as to invite Joe to live in her home, recognizing that it might be the only way to closely monitor her daughter and address her deteriorating behavior. However, as Louisa transitioned from adolescence to young adulthood, Helen found herself with limited options to guide her daughter back on the right path. Despite her best efforts to prevent it, Louisa eventually moved out of the family home and moved in with Joe. As we heard, Louisa had already confessed to Nurse Helen that she had been using both speed and juramine. This revelation provided an explanation for Indigo's shock upon noticing Louisa's significant weight loss when they reunited after a period of separation.

Louisa disappeared for a year. Then one day, I was sitting at my house, and this Capri, maybe it was a red Capri, it was a convertible-looking car, pulled up at my house, and it was her and Joe, and I didn't even recognize her. She was unrecognizable. She had lost copious amounts of weight. She looked happy. I'll give her that.

Although Louisa didn't enter Intigo's house that day, this brief encounter reignited their friendship and led to regular communication once more. By the end of 2008, Louisa's relationship with her mother had also improved, and there were hopeful signs that the life in Australia Helen had fought so hard to create for her family was finally taking shape. They even started working as cleaners together, with Louisa roping in her brother Tass to help drop off pamphlets advertising their business.

I'll do the run around the area and drop off pamphlets, and sure enough, they got a couple of jobs from there. We were like a team. We were trying to make something together, good, something together. For a period of time, they used to work together, Louisa and my mom, yes.

Nurse Helen would also pop in on an occasion to check in on the family. During the warmer months, she would visit Louisa and her sister, taking them to different places, including the swimming pool.

She was a very good swimmer. Louisa was a very, very good swimmer.

Have you seen her swim?

Yeah, many times. We'd gone to the beach, we'd gone to the pools, She was a very, very good swimmer.

Was she just sunbathing or was she actually in the water?

No, in the water. Was she swimming laps or dog- Yeah, no, no. Swimming laps, especially at the pools, the Northcoup Pools. She would be swimming laps. And then some baking, of course, but swimming laps at the Northcourt Pools. A very, very popular girl. Everyone knew her.

Did you ever go down to the creek with her?

No.

So as the Yuinita's family seemed to be experiencing a term for the better, no one could have foreseen the tragedy that would unfold on New Year's Day, 2009, followed only two years later by Louisa's mysterious death in Darroban Creek.

Do you see this face? Does this face look happy? No, it's just not happy. Bye-bye.

Still to come on Troubled Waters.

Some girls you can't control and some things you can't control. When we talk about coercive control, the broadest definition is really looking at how constricted someone's life has become. It's not Helen's fault that they got into drugs. It's not Helen's fault that she found Jo and Louisa would not listen. Kaisal.

Casewell presents Troubled Waters is written and produced by Julia Robson and Claire McGrath. Audio production by Mike Megus. Audio editing by Anthony Taufer.