And what's it like to be someone's disappointment for 20 something years?

It's hard.

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin? With Esther Perel. None of the voices in the series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

Well, I wanted to work on my relationship. I want to make it better, more satisfying, both for her and for myself. I tend to be more solitary and like to do things on my own, like time alone.

We enjoy the same kind of plays and restaurants, and if we travel together, it's really usually a great time. Put us in the same kitchen together, trying to figure out, you know, whether there's crystal light or grape juice in a pitcher and I could bite his head off.

What if find ways for us to keep from wandering off in our own direction because we have a tendency to do that.

As far as our sex life goes, we get very caught in just the struggle of it when I think it could be fun, more relaxed and more engaging for both of us, instead of sad.

This couple has been together for more than two decades and sexuality has been a problem, has been fraught pretty much since the beginning.

In the past twelve years, there's been the impotence and it's like very slow awareness of, wow, this is the rest of my life if I stay in this marriage. Every time we have sexual play, there's like this overwhelming grief waiting for me when I suddenly aware now that it's really unlikely that there's ever going to be an action. I mean, there hasn't been in a decade.

It's not just his penis that doesn't connect. It's also his entire being that struggles to connect with her in this particular way. And they would like to do something about this because he doesn't want to lose her and she's really despairing. But I also think that before they can speak about his erectile difficulties and about their sexlessness, there is another place we need to enter, which is his aloneness.

This is where should we begin with Esther Perel?

If you had an image of yourself as a kid, what would it be?

I was alone.

And do you think that that way of yours still is part of how on occasion, instead of reaching out to your wife, you decide?

I think so.

I better do it. You don't even decide. You just go about things on your own, right?

I think so.

And if you had a few words to describe your family, what would you say?

Closed off, distant, isolated people, talked at a dinner table? No, no, we just sat and ate. I think that's one of the things that really is uncomfortable with. That's right. That's what she says all the time, that her family is always talking. In my family, we just kind of sit and eat.

And what drew you to this woman? Where did you meet her?

Hmm.

Her legs. But her.

Go for it.

Yeah, why not? But more, it was her forwardness, her honesty, her ability to just say what's on her mind.

What stands out in this couple is that the sexual problem exists within a very defined, cross cultural couple in which the woman who grew up in the United States brings with her a very powerful tradition toward autonomy and assertiveness and the ability to express one's wanting, one's feelings. Whereas this man who grew up in China and then came with his family in his school years to the United States, grew up not with the idea that he needed to know what he wants, but he needed to be attuned to the wantings of others. And that that attunement to the needs of the collective is also what has made him wonderfully competent in his work and attuned to her. But there is a paradox in the original attraction. As you will see, it's an interesting thing between what one actually was drawn to and what one ultimately ends up doing. You know, you say her legs, of course. My first thought in my head is, when's the last time he touched those legs?

Earlier this week.

Now do me a favorite of if you know you touch them, then you know you touch them. You don't have to go ask her if it's correct.

Right.

Because that position of insecurity that you've been in now for so long, where she has the truth or she has the count, or she knows when's the last time, or she knows how often.

That's not really.

You're as smart as they come, you.

Know, to count, right?

So if I ask you when's the last time you touched them, you have a sense. You tell me. It doesn't really matter to me when, but it's like, do you still feel like you, you can reach out to those legs that you found so beautiful? So do you get to enjoy those legs or not?

I do. Good.

Simple. And do you think she enjoys which one you enjoy?

I think so.

You think you know?

Yeah.

Why?

You doubt it? Because it depends on the approach, depends on the timing, depends on whether she's busy doing something or other. Depends on whether she's got her mind on something else, so that timing becomes an issue. There are times when I try to touch her, and if it's not the right time, I get snapped at.

And what do you do when you get snapped?

I back off.

Give me an example.

If I touch her hair, give her a hug in the morning, if she's in a hurry to get out of the house, then I'd back off.

When we worked with, can I use the first name of a therapist?

That's okay, isn't it?

When we worked with Andrew, I really appreciated how he spoke to you once about how to enter into the buzzing around of me. And when he was describing it to you, I was like, oh, that's it. That's just what I need. Like, you hear this, but, you know.

I just watched him, and I had this image of you going, and then he just trying to, you know, to notice when exactly at some point, maybe. And what would happen if he actually said, stop for a minute. When I met this couple, I had a sense that the wife had been speaking for years, repeating herself, begging, asking, despairing, and continuously feeling that his response was too little, too late, or not at all. And so I decided to imbalance the situation by actually having a very long conversation just with him, where she could listen and he could present himself, present the issues, present his wishes, their expectations for our work together, and free her from the responsibility that she had been carrying for way too long. What would happen if he actually said, stop for a minute. You're not gonna get late. We need this, or, I want this? That would be even more daring. But the man who does that is not the man who can say, I think that she likes it, right? He has to say, I know, or, I'll make her. But in a playful way, I make her. How confident can you be?

Pardon me?

How confident can I be to say.

That a year or so ago, I was. I'm very active in this volunteer organization, and I would be paired with a very strong personality that was a demanding person, that things be done absolutely a particular way, and could be utterly tactless at it as well. And I enjoyed him tremendously, considerably older than I am, and we were actually in bed, like, having sex back then. And I said, wow, I'm having this fantasy of what it would be like to have sex with this guy. You know who I'm talking about? Because I just can imagine him saying, okay, we're gonna do this, and then we're gonna do this, and then we're gonna do this. And it's gonna have to be absolutely exact. And for some reason, he kept popping into my head while we were kind of love making. And I share that. I could just see that for some reason, that must be attractive to me on some level. Do you remember the story, me telling you this?

Not really, no.

Because you took it really well. You took it right in stride, and I was pleased.

But are you inviting him? Is this what you just did? An invitation to take charge?

Yeah. She said it that I need to know what I want and go for it. I guess, in a way.

Can you ask her for something right now?

Can I ask her for something right now? Yes.

Take her hand and just ask her for something. Then you can use her hand to touch you.

Hold my face.

And tell her exactly how you want her to touch your face. Does that feel good? Do you want it differently? Different stroke, different pressure? Just ask for what you want.

That's a problem in.

No, just ask for what you want.

That's a problem in that I don't know what I want.

Okay, then try out different things.

Okay. Okay.

Try it very light. And then tell her how that feels. Just let her know. How does that one feel?

I think I like it lighter.

Do you want a steady stroke or do you want a touch of the tip of the fingers?

I think I like tip of the fingers.

Okay. Does that feel good?

I'm tempted to say I think it does.

I want you to own it.

Okay.

And how does that feel?

It's nice.

Then tell her.

That'S nice. I like it.

Okay. And how often do you do that?

Not very often at all. What happens too is that when she starts touching me, I have this strong impulse to be touching her.

Rather than plenty of time.

I get worried too, that she'll get tired of it. She'll get impatient and want to move on.

Depends on your feedback. If your feedback says, hmm, keep on doing right, that's interesting. I like this. I don't know. Do this. That other one again. No, the change again. Which one do I like? Actually? More. I don't know. But keep on going and you feed the motivation.

Right?

There is no bigger turn on. Do you know then what?

A positive feedback.

Confidence.

She's told me that too.

It just came up on that drive. He's taking less and less on call as he becomes a senior partner in near's retirement. So I don't hear him doing hospital work or on call the way it occupied our life in the past. And recently, we were driving somewhere, and I was driving so he could answer a call, remember?

Yep.

And this is just the past two weeks. And he was going through a quick differential diagnosis with a patient and dealing with it. And when he got off the phone, I was like, there's the guy I met, you know, at work that I fell in love with. I never got to live with him.

But the part of what you're describing is that you have never. I'm not sure. I've never. But you have not had much experience with asking.

Mm hmm. Right.

Knowing what to ask and then trusting that you will receive and then enjoying receiving. It's a new language. You're very good at taking care of other people. You may not be as good at letting other people take care of you.

Yeah, that's for sure.

Without experience in that, then he can't act confidently in that manner.

You see, you two don't have a problem loving each other. You know, you have this elephant that's been between the two of you for a long time with a complete over focus on your performance, on the erectile difficulties, you know, and all these ugly words that are completely shaming and emasculating. And, you know, the word emasculating does not exist in the feminine. That's a plague for men. So change the language, because it is crippling. And it's as if you don't have a whole body. We make love with the whole body and a lot of other parts of us, not just with our genitals. If you stay focused on those damn genitals, not much is going to happen simply because it's reductionistic and rather boring. And plus, you can't rely on them. But you can rely on your hand. You can rely on your smell. You can rely on your skin. You can rely on your hair. You can rely on your voice. You can rely on your smile, on your eyes. My God, there's a lot of instruments in this orchestra. And you're going to learn a question that was never asked to you as a child.

What would you like? I don't think that was a question that was part of the family vocabulary.

No.

And so it's a little awkward to say, I like, or I would like, or, this feels good, or this is. It's like, I'm going to. This is going to be called the therapy of indulgence. How do we learn to indulge? To experience pleasure for its own sake? He realized that this was a question nobody had ever asked him. Do you have permission to experience pleasure and to seek pleasure. And do you have permission to explicitly set out to seek joy? It is very hard for some people, especially for him, who struggles with feeling that this is too indulgent, that this is too selfish. He's a caregiver. He's a caregiver in the full sense of the word, professionally as well as personally, which is part of why she's attached to him as well. But in his way of being such a caregiver, he does not know how to care for himself. And then I could turn to her and ask her, what drew you to him? Knowing or suspecting that very often the very thing that infuriates us two decades later is also sometimes the very thing that originally drew us in and was irresistible. We have to take a brief break.

Stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is an all in one platform that you can use to build a website and help people find your ventures. Whether you're seeking a location for your podcast, teaching language courses, or selling handcrafted ceramics, Squarespace has all the tools you need to create a home on the web. You can create a polished, professional place that connects people with whatever you are excited about. Squarespace also supports all forms of connecting with those people, whether you're selling products online or in person, or offering memberships, you can make your website look exactly how you want it to be. They even have tools that help you create a custom logo, and they make it easy to create a place where people can schedule an appointment with you, browse your services, or learn more about why you do what you do. Visit squarespace.com estair for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Masterclass. Long summer days offer plenty of opportunities to learn something new.

Masterclass could be the perfect place to start. Masterclass is a streaming platform where you can learn from more than 200 of the world's best to help you become your best. Learn from people like Ava Duvernay, Mark Kuban, Marta Stewart, or myself. I have a masterclass about relational intelligence. We all live in relationships, so it's really for everybody. But there's a focus on your relationships in the workplace. An annual membership with Masterclass costs just $10 a month, and you get unlimited access to every instructor on multiple devices. That includes your phone, computer, or smart tv, and they also have an audio mode. Right now, you can get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com begin. That's 15% off@masterclass.com. begin. Masterclass.com begin.

President Biden was working all through the holiday weekend. I, on a call with democratic governors, he apparently said his health was fine. It's just my brain. And at a rally, he said he'd beat Donald Trump. But in the past, I'll beat Donald Trump.

I will beat him again in 2020.

By the way, we're going to do.

It again in 2024.

Nevertheless, in an interview with George Stephanopoulos, he said it would take divine intervention to get him to step down with the friends.

And the Lord Almighty comes out and tells me that I might do that.

He also said his terrible debate performance was his fault.

Nobody's fault, mine. Nobody's fault but mine.

Everyone agrees, sir.

Not my fault. No one else's fault.

Joe versus himself. You can find it right now over at today. Explained. We drop an episode every afternoon, Monday through Friday. You'll love it.

And what drew you to him?

Our dates were fun. We did interesting things. He was.

How old were you?

I was 24.

23, I think.

23, yeah. He was quiet and calm.

And he's being quiet. What was that like for you?

It was safe and non critical. I see so many of those characteristics so differently now that it's painful. He is calm, but he's not. He's also very, very anxious and denies it adamantly.

Who is the more critical of you two?

Who is the more critical? It's easy to say me, but I.

Don'T know if that is true.

I'm just more obvious about it. And you're quiet and subtle about it.

But are you a person who gives compliments or shows appreciation verbally, or did you learn the family language by which, you know, without it having to be said?

Probably the latter, that.

Same with your kids.

Probably true, although I try to say more to them.

And your wife would love if you did so with her, too spontaneously.

I feed him lines all the time. So tell me I rock. Tell me this outfit's gorgeous.

Tell me I look great. But you understand that this is very much another language he has learned to state things, to make things explicit. And you have to understand that these reactions are very cultural, not only personal. You know that.

You know, I, I think I know that, but I don't think she believes that.

Believes what? I don't know what we're talking about.

That some of what I am is not just me, but my background. Even though I came over when I was really young at seven, I think there's still something there that from culturally, that makes me who I am and not just me, there's a way that I say, aha. That drives her crazy because she'll say something, make a statement or something like that. And I'll say, uh huh. I mean that as yes, I hear you. But she takes that as it should be a yes. And so you get a little annoyed that it's. That it isn't.

And you have preferred to get annoyed than to learn to translate.

I'd be talking along and he'd say, uh huh. Oh, my God, it took me so long to catch on. And I'd like, look at him. And I'd be like. Because it's where an agreement wouldn't make sense. And so I'd be bewildered. And so I'd rephrase it, and I might get an uh huh. Or I might not get another uh huh. And I'd be like, but you just said yes. And then I would get, no, I didn't. And then we'd be locked in this insane argument of, no, I didn't say a hunt. But you do. And when people say, uh huh and so on and so on, God awful million times.

Most of what you described to me is either his shortcomings or your reactions to his shortcomings. It's always him, ultimately, who is responsible for what you're feeling. And the poor guy can't carry two people. Leave him out of the story. Did you know that you were recruited for a play you didn't audition for? You don't feel it?

Oh, I feel it.

You do?

Yeah, I do. I feel like I've apologized over and over again. I'm so sorry that I led you into this.

Into what?

Into everything that she's missing. That if she had not gotten. Gotten stuck with me, married me, she would be so much better off because she would have all of these other things that she misses. So that's what I hear, and that's what I end up feeling at some level.

And what do you feel about you?

That I'm okay. I'm fine the way I am. And that, yes, there are things that I should. It would be nice if there were things that were different. It would be nice if I was more outgoing, more communicative. And I try to be, but I'm still okay the way I am. And I feel sad that she's stuck with that and feels that she's disappointed with it.

And what's it like to be someone's disappointment for 20 something years?

It's hard.

Tell her.

Um, it's. It's hard to be a disappointment. And yet at the same time, I think there's something there. Some anger. I am who I am. Why does that have to be a problem for you? I guess, is what comes up.

There's an odd sense of over responsibility, though, that is hand in hand with the criticism, like, and with sex, both with the premature ejaculation right from the honeymoon. Like, the last thing you want to do is criticize a man for any problems like this. So I felt like I tried everything possible to make it better. And it felt like there was this huge burden of responsibility on me.

To.

Help him feel more comfortable sexually, to try to make things happen sexually. And then when the impotence started ten or twelve years ago, it was even harder trying to be, I don't know, funny and sweet and seductive and gentle and non demanding. And, I mean, I ran the gamut over a decade of when I completely burned out and thought, I just cannot be responsible for this. There's just no way I'm making this happen. There was a moment with one therapist that didn't work out well, where I realized in session that he felt terrible about me getting up and marching out of the bed. And the therapist said to me, you know, stay. You gotta stay and be there with him and for him and talk to him. And what I was doing is I was going in the bathroom and I was burying my face in a towel and biting it and howling and crying, frustrated and not wanting to burden him with my sexual frustration. Because sex was always, for so often, coming to that moment where like, we lose the erection and then we'd stop and we'd try things to get the erection back and whole over focus on that.

And so I.

And if the penis did not comply, then the sex was overdeveloped.

No, it was worse. It was wait, ten or 15 minutes and maybe just lay there together and then trying again. And I mean, at this point, maybe we started playing and I was aroused and maybe he'd bring me to climax and that would be lovely. And then we would try to have intercourse and then things like the penis wouldn't stay hard, so we couldn't have intercourse. So we'd kind of fumble at that point and maybe stop. And then there were times where 20 minutes later, like, can we try again? And it wouldn't work. It might get hard, but just briefly. And so we'd stop and then maybe 45 minutes, I'd get woke up again. And I think it's hard now and this went on for a period of years.

I don't know.

Do you remember that?

I'm not sure if it happened all that often in terms of my waking you up repeatedly. Yeah, I remember.

Explain a little bit. What do you know about your erectile difficulties? What's the issue?

What's the issue?

Yeah. I don't know what impotence means. Okay. I think it's a horrible word, but I don't have a clue what it means. If you say to a woman, frigid, nymphomaniac, impotent to a man. These are such categoricals. They almost perform the sentence as you're uttering it. I think that language shapes the experience. If you keep repeating, you are impotent, you are impotent, or if you repeat, you are always aggressive, you are always aggressive. You are so impatient. You are so impatient, you actually end up reinforcing the very reality that you're trying to undo. It is not useful. I think these words mean very. A lot of things in the cultural sense, but I don't know what they mean subjectively. Sorry.

So objectively, for us, it means that I can't get enough of an erection. Hard enough to. To penetrate and keep going and have intercourse and have it. Yeah.

And when you masturbate.

It doesn't get very hard.

And you have been examined by a urologist?

Yes.

And what is the. Is there an organic reason to it or is there a. No organic base to it?

No obvious organic base to it. My testosterone level is a little on the lower side, but taking testosterone didn't really make much of a difference at all.

Any viagra, any cialis?

We tried Viagra, cialis, levitra.

Yeah.

And it helps some, yes, but not completely.

But it helps years ago, and then it stopped helping.

Yeah. As I gotten older, it's gotten worse.

There is an entire experience here, an entire communicative experience of sensuality, of pleasure, of connection, of emotion, of senses that is completely annihilated by the simple focus on potency or impotence as the defining factor. And furthermore, a symptom is a symptom. A symptom is not the overall definition of a person. You may struggle with erectile dysfunction, you may have difficulty around impotence. You are not unimpotent. Anything that essentializes a person and takes a problem and makes it a definition is problematic. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

Can I do my own summation? In a nutshell, I mean, with the physicality I mean the, the very, very short.

I don't know if that's a good idea.

Okay, can.

It's his body. Is that okay?

No, I'm complying, but it's not okay.

Ask him.

Ask him what?

If you can talk for him.

That's talking for him. Like I haven't been in the bedroom for 20 years.

Yes, you have been. And it's been miserable. But at the same time, there's a certain dignity about him being able to talk about what he struggles with, that he needs to be able to preserve. It's both ends. Every time you say his impotence, you make him more limp. And every time sex is dictated by the penis. You are both completely missing the point. And if you're going to explore this, she needs to know that you get that it's a big deal for her and that you're going to have to make more.

Obviously, he says he was examined. When you asked was he examined? There's been difficulties since day one and more significant difficulties as of twelve years ago. And he was examined two months ago because he had a urinary tract infection. And the specialist who really did a great job asked these questions that brought all these other things to be discussed. So it was hard to sit and listen to that exam three months ago and then to hear him say, yes, he was examined.

So you didn't go for the entire 25 years before?

No, that's true.

May I ask why?

Because I've looked at it, I've read and I didn't see that there was anything to be gained.

No, no. You've never heard of sex therapy? We went.

Well, we went, we went and saw.

Michael and that was.

And then we saw Andrew as well. So, yes, we've gone to a sex therapist and didn't get anywhere with that.

But did they teach you any techniques.

For, for premature ejaculation? Yes.

And also for being able to hold erections.

We've tried the medications.

No, no, not medication.

Okay.

Breath and movement.

Breath and move. No, I don't know about that.

Okay, I want you to take her hand.

Okay.

And I just start playing with this hand and this forearm. Just play with it. And you can close your eyes too if you want. You can go hard, you can go soft, you can go fast, slow, back of the hand. But your entire focus, you are giving touch. In the exercise of giving touch, you have a sense as to how people experience what they owe to the other, how much they feel obligated, how much they feel that they first need to give in order to deserve receiving something, how much they feel that they first need to please the woman, as he does before he dares to actually experience his own pleasure. As if he has acquitted himself from a debt. And in the experience of taking touch, it's really the ability to be inside one's own body, inside one's own movement, one's own breath, one's own voice. And to be able to do so without the self consciousness that doesn't allow you to actually experience the fullness of your own pleasure and your own mounting sensations. Breathe from the belly. Breathe deep. As you take in the sensation, the pleasure of using her body, her skin for yourself.

Do you notice a difference? Details.

Napkins.

Yeah.

What pops in my head is somebody's home that is resident and enjoying me.

And to you. Did you hold back? Did you want more?

I probably felt bad. Yeah.

Okay, so here's what I am thinking. Okay? I would continue this exercise for a good 20 minutes. Because I don't think you have ever given yourself full pleasure. I don't know if you've done it alone, but I know for sure you haven't done it in the presence of someone where you actually use her for your pleasure. Then your giving touch will be very different too. Generally, when you give touch, you're trying to be good, right? You're not being a lover, you're being fair, you're being good, you're being a good husband, you're being dutiful. And all of these qualities are wonderful, but they suck in the bedroom. They're completely anti erotic. You don't use your aggression, and without that, you cannot get an erection.

So I should be using my aggression more?

Of course. But aggression in French comes from the verb agir, to act, to strive not to be violent. You so hold it all together and hold it all in, and you freeze your body, which is the actual opposite of what you have to do. You have got to move, and the motion is a wave. And you can go as big as you want. And with the breath, because the breath will intensify it. It's not just breathing, it's ha. The sound of the breath. Any woman who pushes a baby out knows that without the sound, she can't push. It's the same pushing. You cannot have sex without a sound. Just breathing that breath will let you hold and last longer. Like, no Viagra will ever do this. If you continued to just play with her arm the way you did, you do. And you just go on and you become really present in it and fully enjoy yourself. She'll come on her own.

But I have to be enjoying myself.

But you have to be enjoying yourself. At this point, it's all about your being inside of you and you have spent 20 something years trying to be inside of her. And it won't work. I ask every couple to send me thoughts, a letter, a feedback after the session. And so a few weeks later, I received a letter from the wife in which she said my overall feeling remained more resigned than hopeful. Afterwards, some couples come to see me and realize that they can have a much better relationship than the one that they have accepted to live in. And some couples come to me and live with the humility of realizing that this is the relationship that they're going to have and they are going to choose to stay in that. I think the most important thing for any couples therapist is to accept the choices that people make and their own self determination and not to be neither the defendant of marriage at all cost or the advocate of divorce at all costs. Life is complicated and so are people's choices. The episode that you've just listened to was actually my first ever episode of where should we begin?

In fact, it was the pilot. It was the proof of concept, the one that was going to let us know, is there even something here that we can play with? Is this what we think it is? And so I discussed with Jesse, my producer, and Paul, my sound creator and engineer, that first session. We actually went back to it. We share with you our thoughts, our experience, our lessons learned from that first episode.

Jesse always tells the story where it sounds like I was crying during the first session because I'm impotent. Yeah, like, she'll say this among our, like, colleagues.

That is not true.

And there's no way to come back from that story.

She told that about you.

Yeah, she sort of infers it in the story where, like, the only way to come back is, I mean, what? Like, you can't. What am I supposed to say?

That's actually true?

I have a history of inappropriate erections in the workplace. That's.

That's the only way I do tell a story for laughs at your expense. That's actually true.

On office hours, on Apple podcasts, in my subscription feed later this week, you.

Just heard a classic session of where should we begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine. And the cut to apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherparrell.com dot. Astaire Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called where should we begin? For details, go to her website, asteraparel.com dot.

If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York magazine. I'm Corey Seca, and I'm here with Reeves Wideeman, who has written about the american obsession with NDAs. Where did they come from? Why are they everywhere? And are they good for anything besides covering up for abusers? After you poked around at NDAs for a while, do you see NDAs used mostly as tools of abuse and coercion? You see positive results, like where? Where did you land on NDAs?

I think in most situations it is used as a way to sort of claim power, but not even necessarily to like to do a bad thing. It's just kind of, it is this now this sort of boring standard tool in the toolbox of corporations or powerful people, but now it's being used on the people. At the bottom, it's the warehouse workers at Amazon being made to sign them. Or like, I was just trawling job listings while doing this story, and there were NDAs for forklift drivers and, like, people working in butcher shops. And I think on the one hand, it's just kind of like, well, I might as well. There's no downside for me to do this, but it is also just a, another way that you sort of keep your employees or people you get into a relationship with that you sort of keep your thumb on them. So I do think it is, at the end of the day, the people who are giving them out, by and large, are trying to control someone.

Do you think that they're gonna become standard for, like, literally every interaction and job interview and possibly relationship as well? Or do you think they're just finally gonna die or become outlawed? Like, where do we go from here?

You know, it was corporations first, then it was celebrities. Then it was just rich people who aren't famous, but they also want to protect their privacy. The next frontier is people like you and me. And are we going to start giving them to their partners? You know, I think some people are going to start experimenting with it. It doesn't take much to go online, download a free NDA, and without even consulting a lawyer and hand it over to someone. I did, as a joke, send one to my girlfriend. She hasn't signed it yet, but I.

At least sent it that's Reeves Weiderman, who may or may not be single soon. You can read his work on NDAs in our beautiful print magazine in your own home or on nymag.com lineup.