We're all wired differently. Some of us are wired for good, and some of us are wired for bad. I'm happy about the life I've lived as long as I got away with it. This is Deviant, the crime podcast that chases the truth into the dark corners of what humans are capable of. I'm Andrew Iiden. And I'm Dan Sematowitch. Join us each week as we go inside the stories. Evil, demon, devil. Listen and follow Deviant now on your favorite podcast platform, and never miss a show. A cast recommends, podcasts we love. Hello, this is Louise McSharry from Catch Up with Louise McSharry, the podcast which aims to catch you up on what's going on, no matter how busy you are. On Mondays, our news episode will fill you in on current affairs in Ireland and beyond. On Wednesdays, we'll chat about what's been going on in the world of celebrity and entertainment. And on Fridays, I'll introduce you to someone who's been up to something really interesting, whether it's an author, a comedian, or just someone who really knows a lot about something we've been wondering about. Come for the catch up, Stay for the crack.

Subscribe to catch up with Louise McSharry now. Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including the David McWilliams podcast. I'm Grandma, and the one you're listening to right now. Previously on Who Killed Jennifer Judd. I had one dream one time where I was in a movie theater, and I was by myself, and somebody tapped me in the shoulder and turned around. It was her. And she said, I just want you to know I'm okay. She did not have enemies. I can't literally sit here and think of somebody that did not like her. In my opinion, I feel like one person done it, one person knows he did it, and he has not told a single person. From ID and Dark Media, I'm Sara Calin, and this is Who Killed Jennifer Judd. There's some things that are notes that says not included, and I was just wondering if they were missing things. This is crime scene expert extraordinaire, Reina Delaroco. I mean, why did they go back? What made them go back and try to process the knife in 2000? Because I'm guessing they processed it then? I have no idea. Okay. Reina is part of the Investigative Collective I started with Dr. Anne Burgess during the pandemic.

Reina's title is the Chief of Forensic Sciences and Evidence Services for the Baltimore Police Department. In everyday English, Reina is the head of all forensics and crime scene investigation for the eighth largest police department in the country. When I look at a crime scene, I'm looking for the ways the scene tells a story about what was going on with the killer's frame of mind, the dynamic between the killer and the victim, and what clues the actions of the event leave behind. Criminalists like Reina look for more minute details about the physical evidence and what those details tell us about the events that took place during the course of the murder. I sent Reina the relevant case files and asked her to go through the evidence list and crime scene photos with me on Zoom. I'm wondering if she'll be interested in pieces of evidence that I haven't prioritized. I plan on talking about DNA, but I'm still reeling from the discovery of the fingerprint on the knife blade. It does seem to me that there's absolutely some stuff there. They do not match Jennifer, they do not match her husband, and they do not match Chuck Chance.

I mean, it's going to be bananas if we solve a 32-year-old case with fucking fingerprint. I mean, seriously. I still can't believe they didn't compare the fingerprint on the knife blade to the fingerprints of Jeremy Jones. I mean, these were national headlines, so a lot of people were asking them, Are you sure he didn't do it? The easiest, fastest road would be to be like, Yeah, we tested his prints and blood don't match and his story's dumb. Yep. You know? Call it a day. Yeah, exactly. And so far, I haven't found where they did. Rana asks to see crime scene photos. I share my screen and start going through them. We get to a photo of Jennifer's body. She looks almost like a 20-year-old today. Her jeans are the 1990s She's style that's making a comeback. Her shoes are red khakis with white soles and laces, a red sweatshirt, and manicured red nails to match. See how her shirt is pulled up? Red sweatshirt? Yeah. Is that from Did Justin say, I tried to do CPR? No, he didn't. He checked for a pulse, but this is how he found her with the shirt pulled up.

Part of it, it could be that she was dragged a little and it just riched it up. But the other thing that's possible is that... Because he said it specifically, when he first saw her, he didn't even really register any blood. What he thought had happened was maybe she had passed out or hit her head on the way down, passing out because she had some blood sugar issues or something. He said it felt to him like it was deliberately covering up the stab wounds in the chest because there are six stab wounds under where that sweatshirt pulled up on her right side. Like on the top part of her chest? Yeah. I don't love that idea, but okay, I want to come back to this one. There's something in my brain that's twisting around and I can't figure it out, but I don't love it. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. We talk a while longer, and then it hits her. This thing that is twisting around in her head. They definitely moved her then because unless she was maybe alive or something, I don't know. But all that dropped, if she was there, they would be a void there where her head was.

A void means that something would have to have been in that space to make an area with no spatter in it. She suggests testing this piece of the carpet. There's a good chance that whoever did this could have cut himself in the attack. If he moved her, he likely would have dripped blood while doing so. It also means we should test her red Keds because the person likely touched Jennifer's shoes if he moved her. We keep flipping through photos. I'm scrolling quickly until she asks me to stop. I mean, that looks like a lot of blood. It does. We're looking at a photo of a laundry basket. There appears to be a white towel in the basket, covered in blood. So there is a white towel listed in some of these? Yeah, but it's listed as collected from Chuck's house. Yeah. So we know that the kitchen towel, there was a kitchen hand towel that had the blood on it. That's the one that I'm very interested in. So it could be that one, but I thought it was found on the floor in the kitchen by her. We debate towels for the next few minutes.

There are several listed in the crime scene report. None list a towel collected from a laundry hamper. I'm not sure if this is the kitchen hand towel or a towel that's not marked in the evidence list. Okay, so they said this towel samples were too faint for interpretation and could not make a conclusion. If that's that, they definitely, that should 100% be on your list of things. It's whatever that one is from that laundry basket. Yeah. Okay. Because that has a ton of DNA, and I can't imagine why that would be too faint for interpretation, because if that's all blood, that's a lot. That's a lot. If somebody cut themselves or was wiping hands off and threw that over there, they're probably going to be on it. We flip through the crime scene photos for nearly 2 hours. Reina gives me plenty to think about. I can't act on this information, though, until we actually have access to the physical evidence. It's been six weeks since Cherokee County Chief Detective Joel Tabor and I realized that some of the most important pieces of evidence are not among the pieces that were transferred to us by the KBI.

So far, Joel has yet to receive anything more. I've spent about 12 hours a day reading witness statements and retracing steps of the various attempts to solve this case. I've looked at Chuck Chance and Jeremy Jones, and now I'm starting to look at someone else. In mid-April, I called Joel and Sheriff Groves with updates. It's a guy named Alan Redin, who is still alive. Are you familiar with this one? Yeah. He's a registered offender, I believe, isn't he, Joel? Yeah. Tall guy with glasses. He, at one point, was a registered offender here. Okay. Yeah, that would make sense. Alan Redin is another person of interest in this case, who has spent his life in the revolving door of recidivism, in and out of jail and prison for decades for a wide range of offenses. In the course of all that, he admitted to at least one rape that took place about three years after Jennifer was killed. So he's interesting for a couple of reasons. One, yes, he's just got that history of sexual assault. He's got an extensive history of domestic violence. He was arrested for armed robbery 11 days after Jennifer was murdered.

I think he was asked in '93 about involvement in Jen's case, and he said no, that he was at work. Somewhere around 2000, somebody actually went and pulled his work records, and he was not at work that day. They He said it was the first day he had ever been absent was May 11th of '92. He also, supposedly, I think one of his sisters or a girlfriend or something had lived in the side of the duplex about a year and a half or two years before Justin moved in. Then there exists this unknown person who harassed Jen at Pitcher Express on two separate occasions, at least, aggravating her enough that a Pitcher police officer just happened to be in the store. Jen said, Can you please make this guy leave? He won't leave me alone. So the officer asked him to leave and then was back in the store a couple of days later, and he was back in there, and he then said, What did I not make clear about not coming in here? I We've seen different reports as to who that person was who might have been harassing her in the store.

But according to this pitcher officer, it was Alan Redden. And Redden, the first time he was interviewed, he didn't deny it or confirm it. He just was like, Okay. Then was interviewed some years later and said, No, that wasn't me. I don't remember. I tried to track down this police officer to see what he remembers. Unfortunately, In the years that followed Jennifer's murder, this officer's badge was stripped. I could go and speak with him, but I don't think it's even worth my time. I prefer to check if someone else knows anything about Alan Redden. Okay, so we're good? What's that? Yeah, you're doing great. Congratulations. Welcome to your first Zoom. I promised Justin Judd I'd call with any questions, and I've been meaning to update him on what I've learned about Chuck Chance. Between Chuck and Alan Redden, I have two big enough reasons to ask Justin to once again think back on the most painful time of his life. I'm going to ask him about Alan Redden. First, I want to discuss what I've learned about Chuck Chance. Did they ever talk to you about a fingerprint on the knife blade? No. So they never told you that they had usable prints on the blade of the knife?

No. Okay. No, they didn't. But that would be real handy. You'd think, right? I can tell you that the prints excluded Chuck. Yeah, they were compared to Chuck's, and they were not his. I'm not eliminating him, but it goes a long way towards, at least towards asking why they're so sure that it's him when they compared this and he was eliminated. All of that being said, he does have a 23 minute window of time that is unaccounted for. And unfortunately, if the time of death falls in that window of time, I'm still going through it. But I would say that if the mixed blood sample on the hand towel also comes back excluding him, we're probably going to say that it wasn't him. But I don't know yet because obviously, we've got to send that blood out. Justin looks at the screen with a blank expression. He doesn't respond. I reiterate that we aren't ruling Chuck out, but I am getting closer to doing so. I think one of the key pieces of evidence will be that towel Reina Delaroco and I noticed when we reviewed crime scene photos. It's a white towel in a laundry basket and appears to be covered in blood.

It's visible in the photographs. It's not sopping, but it's clear that somebody has wiped their hands or wiped a knife or wiped something on it and gotten blood all over it. So I am positive that if that towel exists, we're going to at least get something off of it no matter how it was stored. So that's going to be a key one, too. Do you know about the red paint? No. Okay. We're For some reason, she painted all the insides of the cabinets underneath the sink and stuff, and she painted it all blood red, pretty much. Okay. So it might be paint on that towel. Interesting. Interesting. That's the best I can come up with at that moment. Justin has just all but dashed my hopes that I'd found a highly valuable, untested piece of evidence. It's fine, it's fine. I'm used to the roller coaster of new hope and hopes dashed. That's how these cases go. I promised just in complete transparency, so I feel like I have to tell him the prints on the knife blade are not the only reason I'm starting to move away from Chuck as the primary suspect. One of the things I struggle with with Chuck is that there doesn't appear to be a motive.

Motive can be a very slippery thing when it comes to any murder, but especially to one between two people who know each other. I have heard, I don't know whether it's been evidence or anything that he was always up there trying to get her to go out with him. Did Jennifer ever talk to you about Chuck shoving her at the store at Pitcher Express? It's muffled, but Justin says no. Jennifer never mentioned this to him. Because this is one of the things that brings me back to looking at him. If something like that would have happened, it would have been bad. I mean, he and I would have probably fought and we wouldn't be talking or anything. Actually, if she told me This may never even happen. I know what he means. Jennifer's instinct was right. Had she told Justin that Chuck had shoved her, Justin likely would have gone after Chuck. In Justin's eyes, that means Chuck would have been out of their lives from that point on. Chuck would never have had a chance to go after Jennifer. Even after hearing that the prints on the knife do not match Chuck, Justin remains convinced that Chuck killed Jennifer.

I am less so. Regardless, it breaks my heart that Jennifer didn't feel comfortable telling Justin what happened between her and Chuck at the Pitcher Express. That she didn't think she could tell him that Chuck pushed her because she was afraid that Justin would react by hurting Chuck. After telling Justin this and hearing his reaction, I understand Jennifer's hesitation. Still, it breaks my heart. I sense that Justin and I might go in circles on Chuck Chance. If Chuck didn't kill Jennifer, my heart also breaks for the way suspicion destroyed Chuck's life. The only way to rule him out with certainty will be to confirm my suspicions about other suspects. Speaking of, do you or did you know a guy named Alan Redden? I know of Alan Redden, but if I was to pick him out in a group of people, I probably wouldn't be able to. Okay. I just don't know him. In an interview with him, he claims to have known you, but only really through your parents. Like, your parents were friends with his family. I think he's from Pitcher, and dad's from Pitcher, so probably so. Alan Redden is indeed from Pitcher, Oklahoma, the town where Justin Judd's dad grew up and where Jennifer Judd grew up.

His family moved to the region from Sacramento in the heydays of the mining industry's dominance. One of Alan's brothers worked in the Ministry. Another worked at a plant with Bobby Judd. Alan himself bounced around between jobs a bit, and a few weeks prior to Jennifer's murder, had begun working at a heavy machinery manufacturer called Waseda. If you ask around the area, you'll learn that at some point in their lives, almost everyone worked at Waseda. Okay, but there's nothing about him that jumps out at you? This was not somebody you were hanging out with at the time? No. Okay. No. Because they looked at him pretty closely, and I can't really see when or why they ruled him out. I'm not sure that he should be. He had a history of sexual assault. He had a history of physical assault on women, and he flat out denies any involvement in this. But he had been to the duplex before. Really? So if you can think of more about him or if your parents have any idea who he was or why he might have been, have had some knowledge about the apartment, that would be great.

Oh, yeah. Alan Redden wasn't at work that day either. They went and got his work records, and they asked him, they said, Oh, where were you? He said, Oh, I would have been at work. So they went and pulled his work records and said, Nope, he wasn't here. That's a huge mark right there. I mean, The good news is that there is stuff to work with here, that this is not a dead end. This is not a brick wall. I promise Justin I'll call him again as soon as I know more about the evidence, Alan Redden or anyone to someone else. We're all wired differently. Some of us are wired for good, and some of us are wired for bad. I'm happy about the life I've lived as long as I got away with it. This is Deviant, the crime podcast that chases the truth into the dark corners of what humans are capable of. I'm Andrew Iden. And I'm Dan Samotowitch. Join us each week as we go inside the stories. Evil, demon, devil. Listen and follow Devient Now on your favorite podcast platform and never miss a show. A cast recommends podcasts we love.

Hello, this is Louise McShari from Catch Up with Louise McShari, the podcast which aims to catch you up on what's going on no matter how busy you are. On Mondays, our news episode will fill you in on current affairs in Ireland and beyond. On Wednesdays, we'll chat about what's been going on in the world of celebrity and entertainment. And on Fridays, I'll introduce you to someone who's been up to something really interesting, whether it's an author, a comedian, or just someone who really knows a lot about something we've been wondering about. Come for the catch up, stay for the crack. Subscribe to catch up with Louise McShari now. Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including the David McWilliams podcast, I'm Grandma I'm the one you're listening to right now. Justin Judd, Michelle McCorkle, and Chris Houch have been so generous with their time. Other friends of Jennifer spoke with me off the record, helping me to shape my understanding of Jennifer's life and the rumors that swirled around her death. When I left this area in March of 2024, I promised them all we'd keep in close contact, and we have. I've asked them to let me know if anything comes up.

In April, something did. Okay, Sarah, are you there? Yes, I sure am. Okay. You want me to start reading? Yeah, let her read. Okay. On March the 27th, I sent Jeremy an email. There's a subject line that says hello. And then I just said, Hi, Jeremy. I'm sure sorry about losing your mom. She was always so good to my granny Pete. I've loved my brother and my dad. I know how hard it is around the holidays. I remember your birthday is in April, and know it will be hard without your mom. Chris told him she moved back to Miami and nothing's changed. She tells him his brother still lives near her grandma. Hope you're making it okay for this house. Jones responded as though they'd never lost touch. He wrote, All is good. Glad to hear from you. I'm sorry about what my brother did. He struggles with addiction. And when my dad was still alive, he told me that your mom had tried helping him, giving him odd jobs around her house. And my dad said my brother screwed that up by stealing electric from your mom. Again, I am sorry for how my brother did your family.

God bless you. Good to hear from you. Sincerely, Jeremy. Okay. Yeah, he still cares what you think. This is the first exchange. They have had several since. This one, I said, is on April 16th, so he said, Oh, hello. She tells Jeremy that her brother died in a drunk driving accident. She tells him about her husband and says her parents divorced. I think I'll pass you up on things going on here Tell your life there. Are you okay? And that last one was just a couple of days ago, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think it's huge, to be honest. Getting Jeremy Jones talking to anyone is potentially a huge deal for more than a dozen cases. His appeals are reaching the end of the line, and he could take the truth to his grave, leaving dozens of loved ones to forever wonder if they would ever get the answers they need. I don't know that to think. I don't really know what to talk about now. If he responds over the weekend, I'll email. Oh, I'll send it. I'll take a picture of it and send it to you and tell it. I tell Chris to keep him talking.

He clearly loves to hear about her life, but I suggest she steer clear of anything too personal. She She didn't mention things she heard in the tape of his confession without saying she saw it. Things like the powwows and her grandmother hollering for them to get home. I appreciate you. I appreciate you, too. Have a good evening. A few days later, Chris called me again, this time with even bigger news. Jeremy wrote her back again, and now he says he'd like to call her. I was sure he'd call within a few days, but somehow I got this one wrong. He went silent. We didn't know what to make of this silence, but we stayed hopeful that eventually we'd hear back. With any luck, he'd call in the next week. If he did, I wanted to be there. I also wanted to track down the missing physical evidence, and I wanted to find Alan Redden. By early May 2024, this trio of reasons felt like more than enough to convince me to travel back to the border of Kansas and Oklahoma. I fly into Kansas City, Missouri, and drive the three hours to the border shared by Baxter Springs, Kansas, and Pitcher, Oklahoma.

The Cherokee County Sheriff's office is about 10 minutes into the Kansas side of the border. A few things have changed in the two months since I last visited. Sheriff David Groves announced he is retiring and taking a new job in the private sector. Honestly, when I heard this, I freaked out. There was a real possibility I'd lose access to the case, access to the evidence, confidence and the ability to help the team make decisions about the direction of the investigation. The sheriff quelled all my concerns by deciding to deputize me. That means I am now officially working on behalf of the Cherokee County Sheriff's office, and my role in the investigation will remain on firm footing. We're still trying to track down several key pieces of evidence. Initially, we believe they were at the Baxter Springs Police headquarters. There seems to have been questions over whether we were looking for case files or actual evidence. The Baxter Springs Police Department is fully cooperating with us, but for various reasons, we have not yet located the actual items. The KBI might have them at the KBI lab, and we're trying to figure that out. We'll try to find them before I leave town.

Regardless, we're going to send something to the DNA testing lab by the end of the week. But evidence is not the only reason I'm back in this region of the country. The other, of course, is to track down Alan Redden. Once I settle back in and my files are organized, the Sheriff, Joel, and I gather in the conference room to talk through what we know about Redden. By complete chance, or perhaps because this is how everything goes in this area, when I mention Redden's name to Detective Leslie Bissele, Leslie laughed. Leslie Bissele was Leslie Redden until she got married. Alan is one of Leslie's first cousins. So I asked her to see if she can find out where he is. Not necessarily to make the ask, but then I'll make the ask. Alan Redden has a fairly long record of offenses, the most serious of which is a first-degree rape conviction in December 1995. The rape charge here, is this a Kansas charge? No. Okay. I think. Okay. So we probably don't have access to the details of the case. I'd just love to see if there's a knife involved. He's a registered offender. He's got to be on somebody's list.

Yeah. He used to be one for us. I don't know where he moved to. The sheriff is saying Alan Redden was a registered sex offender in Cherokee County, Kansas, when he lived here. Registered offenders must re-register every year. Redden stopped registering in 2018, which means he moved elsewhere. So we may be able to get an address. Actually, what are you doing? Go to a Fender Watch and just see, or type in Alan Redden, sex offender, or whatever. Joel is a few steps ahead of us. He tells us Redden moved to Oklahoma, or maybe it was Missouri. He can't seem to figure out which address Redden is currently using. And then... Is he a horn? Oh, Got to work for a possession of his home property. What the hell? 2019. Oh, let's go get him. What this means for us is that we have a bit of leverage in gaining his cooperation. Even a misdemeanor warrant like this can be a real pain to deal with. Being right on the state line like this is useful because it gives us multiple avenues to find these types of incentives. This is more than I'd let myself hope would happen today.

We break for lunch. An hour later, happily full of chips, salsa, and the best guacamole ever, I walk into the conference room and find Joel sitting at the long oval table papers spread out in front of him. Rape and stabbing. That's going to be nice if that's the suspect. Wait. Redden. Holy shit. I'd asked Joel to find out if there was a knife involved in Redden's 1995 conviction. I asked on a hunch. I'm very encouraged by what I'm hearing. This right here is by the stabbing. Oh my God. I mean, if you go in further, it's talking about she got raped, too. This is huge. This conviction is in 1995. I take a closer look at the report. The stabbing that's referred to in the very first thing is actually the rape victim's boyfriend, who in the aftermath of the rape went after rent. But he does stab the rape victim at least once under her rib. It also says That two weeks earlier, he had attempted to rape another woman. It didn't get reported as an attempted rape, though. It got reported as an assault by the woman because she hit him in the head with a claw hammer.

The idea of an attempted rape being reported as an assault on the attacker speaker is confounding. The woman wasn't actually charged. It was just reported that way because Redden went to the hospital, and the ER staff were required to notify authorities. As for the knife used in the attack, humans are creatures of habit, and when we find an effective tool or method for anything, we tend to keep utilizing that tool or method until it stops working. We get more skilled, we get more sufficient. This is true for all of us, but it is especially true of repeat offenders. Redden's propensity to use knives in crimes of violence make him an even more compelling suspect than he already was simply by proximity and access. He's got a suspended driver's license out of going off that address. Oh, there he is. So this is suspended in most recent address. This is what he gave us in 2018 when he left, and this was the phone number he gave us in 2018. Where is Sandspring? I don't recognize the town on the address. I ask if they know where it is. Town by Tulsa. I mean, I'll go down there and talk to him, but...

West of Tulsa. It's a hundred dollars from right here. I don't mind. It would be worth it for me to talk to him, but... Just tell him. If he's got warrants, I don't want to do it. I'm not going to his house, you know? Just tell him, I'll cut you a good deal. I can get the Kansas cops not to come and take you back to Kansas on this theft case, but you're going to need to play ball. Yeah. That's an offer I can't refuse. I doubt Redden will be able to either. Are you Amy? What's that? Are you Amy? No, I am not Amy. Do you know if Alan Redden lives here? Is it this one? Yeah. Number two. Okay, thanks. I found the building associated with Redden's last known address. It's nestled into a quaint downtown area, but this spot stands out like a sore thumb. It's in desperate need of new paint, but I get the feeling that wouldn't be enough to make it fit in with this nice area. The front door opens into a very small foyer with some mailboxes on the wall, telling me there are multiple rental units.

In front of me is a huge, wide, extremely dark staircase, going up to an even darker hallway. A large man I can only see in silhouette appears from behind a hall railing at the top of the stairs, apparently expecting someone. He asks if I'm Amy I say no and ask if he's Alan. He's not. Oh, okay. Does he have a dog? Yeah, I got a little dog. Will you do me a favor? Will you let him know? I'm with the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office stuff in Kansas. He is not in trouble. That's the first thing, obviously, to let him know. I am, though, re-investigating a homicide from 1992 that he was interviewed about several times. He was eliminated as a suspect. But because I have to start the case over from scratch. The way it works, I have to go through and just talk to everybody. Yeah. If he's up for it, if he wants to give a call to the Cherokee County Sheriff's office, he can ask for me, but he's more likely going to get Joel Tabor, Detective Joel Tabor. I didn't even bring a card. I'll give you one of those. But if you could just let him know that we would love it if he'd give a call.

Like I said, he is not in trouble. We just need to check that off the list. Okay. Cool. Thank you, sir. I'll let him know. Okay. Thank you. I can't get down that black hole of a staircase fast enough. Okay, so Alan Redden isn't home, but he's alive, and he lives here, and these bits of confirmation are enough to keep us moving forward. I came to Oklahoma, Missouri, and Kansas with three goals. I'd hoped to speak with Alan Redden. I'll settle for speaking with his neighbor and knowing he has my number. I'd hoped to be there when Jeremy Jones calls Chris Hausch. She came to my Airbnb every night for a week, just in case he called. He didn't. But as I'm driving back from trying to find Alan Redden, my phone rings. It's Chris. She just got another message from Jones. I've been completely cleared of all them cases. I am looking forward to talking to you soon. I have a lot we can catch up on, L-O-L. I have, Would prefer talking to you than this email, L-O-L. God bless you all, JJ. Holy shit. I knew it. I knew he'd be back.

But there is something different in his tone after this little vanishing act. He's not flirting exactly, but it's like the mask of sweet, prayerful Jeremy has dropped away. There is innuendo, flirting with plausible deniability. Most women can sense this shift when it happens, even in normal men. But coming from Jeremy Jones, Chris is especially uncomfortable with it. He went from zero to 60 to like, We're thick as thiebs. We've known each other forever, and I can't wait to talk to you. I mean, is it just me or is there a wink in his voice? Yes, there is, and it's creepy. I'm sitting out here at my home. It is so nice and peaceful after tornadoes and the storm. And I'm just watching this rabbit just hop along. It's not scared of anything. While I'm drinking a Pete Spalini and talking about this as much as I possibly can, that this is freaking crazy at this point, that he's signing stuff JJ, and he wants to talk to me on the phone. Yeah. I mean, if at any point you're like, I got to tap out of this, you tap out of this. That is always acceptable at any point.

No questions asked. There's not any way he can get out of there, is there? No. He's very secure where he's at. No, he's not getting out. Assured that he can never get out, she says that she'll take his call if he calls. All I can hope is that he follows through with this. If we can get him to keep inching closer to being his true self with Chris, at some point, he may begin to open up about things that really matter. The third reason I came here is because I'd hoped we'd get all of the physical evidence in our custody. We don't have it yet, but on my last day In town, at least for now, we decide to package up some things we do have in custody that potentially have suspect DNA on them and ship it out to California to a lab I've worked with many times before. If anyone can figure out the story told by DNA, it's this lab. If we ever track down the missing pieces, we'll ship them as well. Or maybe we won't need to. Maybe these pieces will be all we need. I certainly hope they hold answers.

As I start my three-hour drive to the airport, I make one final stop. I drive to the neighborhood where Jeremy Jones grew up. I park at a cute nearby coffee shop to make the rest of the track on foot. As I'm walking, I realize I'm literally crossing to the other side of the tracks. The houses are single-story ranches with chain link fences. Some are very well kept others in various states of disarray. One has a tarp covering a large portion of the roof. Jeremy Jones grew up in one of these ranches on a corner lot. The white siding is discolored. There's a small cement stoop at the door with a metal awning and metal railing supporting it. There's a lot of sunbleached clutter in the yard. I have a picture of this house from the late '80s. Jones is standing in front and smiling for a camera alongside his stepfather and his younger brother. Jones has a full head of wavy brown hair and looks like a happy, healthy teenager. It looks like a nice home in that photo. Today, it is in desperate need of repair. I think about all the rumors about Jones's childhood and how they shaped him.

It's so hard to reconcile the dark stories of abuse and pain with that family photo. Somehow, the state of the home today makes it seem more possible. But I also know from decades in this work, pretty houses and happy pictures don't mean a damn thing. I don't stand there long. Honestly, I obviously don't belong, and I don't feel particularly safe. As I walk back to the car, I think about the many ways Jones has tormented this little pocket of the country since his teenage years. In his confessions, he claims to have also carried out a double murder in the area in 1996, four years after killing Jennifer. Another Another double murder the year after that, and then five more in 1999. If Jennifer Judd was the first person Jeremy Jones killed, this 1996 case would be the first sign of escalation in his degree of violence. On the other hand, it's possible the details of the other case will reveal that Jones had nothing to do with Jennifer's death. It may take time to hear back from Alan Redden to wait for Jeremy Jones to call Chris and for the lab in California to test the physical evidence in Jennifer's case.

I've never been all that good at waiting. Instead, I've decided it's time to look at Jones's other confessions to understand what secrets they might hold to the truth of who killed Jennifer Judd. Next time on Who Killed Jennifer Judd. My mom had heard on the news that there had been a trailer fire, and they had found two bodies in it. And my mom said that she just had this sick feeling that it was my sister. Paul Birch called, identified himself, and told me that Jeremy had confessed. And of course, I had a million questions and was also speechless at the same time. I mean, was this a new high for him? Was this money? Was this drugs? Was this trying to make a name for himself in the whole drug world? Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by ARC Media for ID. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a to leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts.