Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

Well, I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliff, for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There's so much news happening around the world that we're somehow supposed to stay on top of. That's why we launched the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio that turns down the volume a bit to give you some space to think. I'm Wes Kosova. Each weekday, I dig into one important story and talk about why it matters. Listen to the big take on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

Listen this is Giselle and Robin, and we're the host of reasonably Shady on the Black Effect podcast network. This is the podcast that you want to listen to, to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriends. You're driving in the car with your girlfriends. You're having that good girlfriend talk. We do hot topics. We talk about reasonable and shady things. So get into it. Join us every Monday for reasonably shady and tune into the latest season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to reasonably shady on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

It's Thursday, November 21, 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald is visiting his wife, Marina, who is living with Ruth Payne in Irving, Texas. He and Marina were separated, and he had taken a room in a boarding house not far from his job at the Texas school book Depository in Dallas. He would normally visit Marina in June on the weekends, but this is a Thursday, and it's unexpected. President Kennedy and the first lady will arrive in Dallas the next day. Before his arrival, the president became aware of a full page ad in the Dallas Morning News, an ad paid for by right wing extremists, which accused him of being soft on communism and essentially calling him a traitor. Kennedy mused out loud about how easy it would be to assassinate a traveling president. Air Force one lands at Lovefield in Dallas to adoring crowds. As the president shakes hands, Jackie is handed a dozen roses. It had been raining earlier, but now the clouds have parted and the golden couple is bathed in sunlight. Camelot has arrived in Dallas.

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in american history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledat O'Brien.

At this point in our investigation, we've established that there were more than three shots fired at Kennedy and not all from behind. We've presented evidence that Oswald, the alleged lone shooter, had a connection to the CIA and was likely unknowingly being set up for a plan that would motivate an invasion of Cuba. We've also established who had both the motive and the means to carry out the crime. Rogue elements of the CIA, anti Castro cuban exiles, and members of organized crime. And there's evidence that notable leaders from each of these groups was in Dallas that day.

A member of the president's security team later told researcher Vince Palomara, quote, we were getting all sorts of rumors that the president was going to be assassinated in Dallas. He then shares these threats with Kennedy.

That morning, Kennedy says back to him, quote, marty, you worry about me too much. The Secret Service told me they have everything taken care of. There's nothing to worry about. Okay, let's talk specifically about what happened on that day.

Oswald wakes up not knowing exactly what he's part of, but he knows that he's part of something important. Marina is sleeping. Before saying goodbye to her, he takes off his Wedding ring and places it in a cup on her bedside table. He whispers to Marina that there's money in the dresser. $170, a sizable sum for the Oswalds. Marina goes back to sleep. Oswald exits the house and meets Buell Frazier, his co worker at the Texas school book depository. Frazier would often give Oswald a ride to work.

That morning was unusual. Most of the times, I would pick Lee up walking down the sidewalk toward my sister's home, or I'd have to pull up in front of the house and blow on the horn. But that morning was different.

That's Buell Fraser. He was 19 at the time. And we interviewed him in 2023, 60 years after that fateful morning. He remembers it like it was yesterday.

He walked down the half a block across the street, and with him, he had a package. So he goes over to my car, and he puts a package in on the back seat on the passenger side. And so I said, what's in the package, Lee. And he says, don't you remember we talked about this yesterday. I'm going to bring some curtain rods to work. And I said, that's right. You did tell me that.

Now, the package that Frazier mentions has become something of a fascination for JFK researchers.

Is the package the gun?

Well, I asked Frazier about that. Nobody ever has determined what exactly was in that package, have they?

To my knowledge, that is correct, they have not. What I would like to tell you was I have a friend called Josiah Thompson. Josiah has a tag concept.

This was the type of rifle Oswald allegedly used to kill Kennedy.

I said, can we measure this rifle? He said, absolutely. So we measured the rifle, we measured the stock, and we measured the barrel. There's no way that it would fit in the package that was on the backseat of my car.

Right.

So that really made me feel good, because a lot of people have said, I haven't told the truth about that. Well, I'm telling you all I know.

So what was it?

Nobody knows for sure. All we know is that Oswald had a bag that, according to Buell, Frazier, wasn't big enough to hold even a broken down carcano rifle.

Okay, what happens next?

So we get into. We start to drive off. When we get to the parking lot, they gets the package out of the seat. And so he turns around and starts walking towards the building where we would.

Be working during the course of the day. Did you see Oswald at all?

I did run into him. I know he went up to the fifth and 6th floor.

You saw Lee on the fifth and 6th floor at some point?

Yeah, it was on Friday, and it had been a hard week. It's just a normal rotation.

Nothing about that day would be normal. Let's jump ahead a few hours to 11:37 a.m. Air Force one lands at Dallas Love Field. The Kennedys arrive to an adoring crowd.

And here is the president of the United States.

And the crowd is absolutely going wild. They get into the open limousine, and they sit right behind Governor Connolly and his wife, Nellie. The Secret Service car is directly behind them, followed by Vice President Lyndon Johnson and Ladybird. They start their ten mile ride through the streets of Dallas with onlookers cheering along the way. Nellie Connolly turns back and says, you can't tell me that the people of Dallas don't love you, Mr. President. And he says, yeah, they do. Everybody was happy until they turned off Houston street and onto Elm street.

Hi, this is Giselle and Robin, and we're the host of reasonably Shady on the Black Effect podcast network. I absolutely love our podcast. Yes, it has been so much better than I expected. Yes, because we get to share our lives with everyone. They get to learn about us. This is the podcast that you want to listen to just to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriends. You're driving in the car with your girlfriends. You're having that good girlfriend talk. Sometimes we say things that you want to say but you can't say out loud. We're like speaking your mind for you, but you're scared to say it. But we going to say it. We do hot topics. We talk about reasonable and shady things. So get into it. Get into it and join us every Monday for reasonably shady. And be sure to tune into the latest season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to reasonably shady on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Professional dancer Cheryl Burke has been part of Dancing with the Stars since the very beginning. 26 seasons of the samba, the rumba, and the Chacha. 24 partners, six finals, and two mirror ball trophies. She knows all the secrets, the behind the scenes arguments and the affairs, the flings, the flirting and the fighting. It's time to tell all on her new podcast, Sex, Lies, and spray Tans. We'll take you all the way back to season one and up through today for the dance floor drama like you wouldn't believe. Former partners, costars, friends, and frenemies will join Cheryl each week. Listen to sex, lies, and spray tans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's now 12:25 p.m. This is the time that the motorcade was scheduled to pass through Dealy Plaza. According to the Warren report, when Oswald was asked by the Dallas Police Department where he was when the president was shot, he said, quote, went to the second floor where the Coca Cola machine was located, obtained a bottle of Coca Cola for lunch.

Two witnesses also place him there. They say they saw Oswald in or near the second floor lunchroom around the time of the shootings. One witness is a woman named Carolyn Arnold, a secretary at the Texas school book depository.

She said that she was on her way out of the building around 1225 when she saw Oswald in the lunchroom.

She said, quote, he was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I do not recall that he was doing anything. I just recall that he was sitting there in one of the booth seats on the right hand side of the room as you go in.

Okay. Oswald said he was eating lunch, went to the second floor. There are two witnesses that place him there all around 1225 when the motorcade passes by. That seems pretty solid to me.

Except for the fact that the motorcade was running five minutes late. It didn't arrive at dealy Plaza until 1230.

So if it was Oswald who fired the gun, couldn't he have been on the second floor at 1225 and then run up to the 6th floor by 1230?

Okay, let's go with that for a moment. A man is planning to assassinate the president of the United States who is supposed to be arriving at 1225. Now, wouldn't he already be in position at that point? I mean, not casually sitting in a second floor lunchroom, drinking a coke?

Marion Baker is a Dallas police officer who was riding a motorcycle in the motorcade that just entered dealy plaza when the shots rang out. He said he saw pigeons fly off the roof of the Texas school book depository. And without hesitation, he hopped off his bike and ran into the building. Video shows him entering within 15 seconds of the shooting.

He immediately runs into Roy truly, the manager of the building. And truly and Baker start up the stairs.

They reach the second floor lunchroom at 12:32 p.m. Baker confirmed it was 90 seconds after the shots were fired.

And guess who they see sitting in the lunchroom? Oswald with a coke in his hand. Truly tells Baker that Oswald works in the building, so they continue past him. This is 90 seconds after the shooting.

Couldn't Oswald have fired three shots then sprinted down to the second floor within 90 seconds where he runs into Baker?

Well, the Warren commission had the same question. So they reenacted the time it would take Oswald to go from the 6th floor sniper nest down to the second floor. And they timed that at around 75 seconds.

So tight, but definitely plausible.

Sure, if you don't allot any time for Oswald to wipe down the gun. Which he had to have done because none of his fingerprints were found on the gun. It also doesn't include the time it would take Oswalt to hide the gun behind some boxes, which is how it was found. He would have had to have been.

In the lunchroom at 1225, run up the stairs to the sniper's nest, got his rifle into position, fired three shots with incredible accuracy and then wiped the gun clean of fingerprints, hidden it, then run back down the four flights of stairs to the second floor in less than 90 seconds.

So that would be quite the athletic endeavor.

Officer Baker testified that Oswald seemed, and I quote, calm and collected when he encountered him and that it didn't appear that he had been running. But there is another piece of evidence that makes this even more unlikely. Victoria Adams worked on the fourth floor of the building. And after the assassination, she gave a brief deposition to the Warren commission and then disappeared. She was afraid of what her testimony might mean, and she didn't want to get sucked up into all the investigations. Decades later, though, a researcher named Barry Ernst was able to track her down. And between the information that she gave him for his book girl on the stairs and her warrant commission testimony, some very powerful evidence emerged.

Adams was on the fourth floor with three female colleagues when the president's motorcade drove through dealy plaza. They heard gunshots, and they watched the president's limo race off. She and co worker Sandra Stiles ran to the staircase and headed down.

And what she says next is important.

She testified that they did not see or hear anyone else on the stairwell at that time until they reached the first floor. And, yes, it was the only stairwell.

So Oswald would have had to have used the same stairwell to get down to the lunchroom.

Right? So not only would Oswald have to fire three shots clean and hide the gun, he would somehow have to manage to go unnoticed by Victoria Adams and Sandra Stiles as he raced down the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. Now, you can believe that. Or the eyewitnesses who saw Oswald on the second floor the entire time.

So you're saying you don't believe that Oswald was even on the 6th floor when those shots were fired?

Well, let me tell you what the Dallas police chief concluded later that day. He said, quote, the physical evidence and eyewitness accounts do not clearly indicate what took place on the 6th floor of the Texas school book depository at the time that John F. Kennedy was assassinated.

And when Oswald was later arrested, the police did a paraffin test on his cheek. It tests for contaminants from gun residue, and the test on Oswald's cheek was negative.

So my answer is no. I don't think there's any evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. Yet everything changes for him once those shots were fired.

Hi, this is Giselle and Robin, and we're the host of reasonably Shady on the Black Effect podcast network. I absolutely love our podcast. Yes, it has been so much better than I expected. Yes, because we get to share our lives with everyone. They get to learn about us. This is the podcast that you want to listen to just to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriends. You're driving in the car with your girlfriends. You're having that good girlfriend talk. And sometimes we say things that you want to say but you can't say out loud. We're like speaking your mind for you, but you're scared to say it. But we going to say it. We do hot topics. We talk about reasonable and shady things. So get into it. Get into it and join us every Monday for reasonably shady. And be sure to tune into the latest season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to reasonably shady on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Professional dancer Cheryl Burke has been part of Dancing with the Stars since the very beginning. 26 seasons of the samba, the rumba, and the chacha. 24 partners, six finals, and two mirror ball trophies. She knows all the secrets, the behind the scenes arguments and the affairs, the flings, the flirting and the fighting. It's time to tell all on her new podcast, sex, lies, and spray tans. We'll take you all the way back to season one and up through today for the dance floor drama like you wouldn't believe. Former partners, costars, friends, and frenemies will join Cheryl each week. Listen to sex, lies, and spray tans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Kennedy apparently shot in head. He fell face down in backseat of his car.

When the shots begin to ring out, people really begin to panic.

That's Buell Frazier, Oswald's co worker who drove him to work the morning of the assassination. He had stepped outside the Texas schoolbook depository building to watch the motorcade go by.

And people began to run and fall down. And people were crying and hollering and screaming. And this one lady come walking up and she said, they shot the president. And I said, what did that woman say? She said, they have shot the president.

It's just after 12:35 p.m. What does Oswald do next? Well, according to Fraser, he left the building.

Alongside the building was Lee himself.

And what was he doing?

He just walked along very casually. Then he turned right and crossed Elm street. Someone said something. I turned to see who was talking to me, and when I turned back, I had lost him in the crowd.

As Oswald walked away from the building, I believe that is when he started to realize that something had gone wrong and that maybe what Richard case Nagel had told him was true, that he was being set up.

You might remember Nagel as the intelligence agent who warned Oswald that he was being used by people around him.

Right now, dealy Plaza is in total chaos. People are saying the president is going to die. And Oswald begins to act as though his life is in danger.

So what does he do?

He crosses Houston street, and witnesses see him get on a bus. But because of all this chaos, the bus wasn't moving. It was stuck in traffic. So the same witnesses who saw him get on the bus saw him get off. And the next thing we know is he finds a cab and tells the cab driver to take him towards his boarding house.

How do we know this?

Because the cab driver testified that Oswald told him to drop him off a couple of blocks away from his boarding house.

He's obviously concerned or suspicious. Trying to hide his tracks, make sure he isn't being followed.

At 12:45 p.m. Just 15 minutes after the president was shot, the Dallas PD had already radioed out a description. White male, five foot ten, 165 pounds, in his early thirty s. And this was all based on the account of one man who was standing across the street and said he saw a man of this description fire a rifle from the 6th floor.

So now they begin their search for a man who roughly looks like Oswald.

It's now almost 01:00 p.m. Oswald gets out of the cab and walks to the boarding house. The woman who runs the boarding house, Erlene Roberts, said that Oswald went into his room, grabbed his jacket and hurried out. And at some point during that time, he grabbed his revolver. Then he left the boarding house, and he started walking towards the Texas theater. At 01:16 p.m.. A Dallas police officer named J. D. Tippett is patrolling the area near Oswald's boarding house. And he sees a man that fits the description he received on his radio, and he goes over to him. Now, there's a lot of conflicting information about this, including from eyewitnesses. Some say Oswald was stopped by Tippett. Others say Tippett stopped someone else. There are even reports that Tippett stopped two people. All we know for sure is that Officer JD Tippett was shot four times and killed.

And it's never been definitely proven who did it.

Nope. Eyewitness testimony from the incident is all over the place. The Tippett murder may be the subject of another podcast, but what we do know for sure is what Oswald does next. He goes to the movies.

The movies? How do we know he goes to the movies?

Because someone saw him slipping into the now famous Texas theater without paying, and they called the police. So now I want to ask you a question.

Okay, shoot.

Okay. If you were Oswald and you just shot the president of the United States and you go into a movie theater to lay low for a few hours, where would you sit?

I would hide in a dark corner somewhere.

That makes sense. Now to understand. I've been to the Texas theater, and it's big. It seats around 900 people. That afternoon, there were only 20 people in the theater. Now, he could go anywhere. So what does he do? He sits right down next to an 18 year old boy named Jack Davis. Now, I don't know about you, but when I'm in a virtually empty movie theater and a stranger comes in, they don't typically sit right next to you. They leave you some space.

Yeah, that would be normal.

Yeah, right. But not Oswald. In a nearly empty theater, he sits right next to someone.

That's weird.

Yeah, it is weird. And it gets weirder. After sitting next to this 18 year old, Jack Davis, Oswald gets up, and he moves across the aisle, and he sits down next to somebody else. And a few minutes later, he gets up, and he just strolls to the lobby.

In the lobby, he buys popcorn. And the man selling him the popcorn testified that this was at 01:15 p.m.

But we know Tippett was killed at 116.

He was. So either Oswald didn't kill Tippett, or the popcorn guy is way off on his time. Anyway, Oswald goes back into the theater, and according to researchers, he sits down next to a pregnant woman.

What do you think he's doing? Going from person to person to person?

You know, I think he is looking for his contact.

His contact.

The theater could have been a planned meeting spot where someone would be waiting to get him to a safe house and then ultimately out of Dallas.

This is straight out of the intelligence operation playbooks. If a plan goes wrong, go to your prearranged meetup spot.

Except that after sitting next to all these people, none of them respond. So he goes to the back of the theater and sits there alone. Within minutes, the Dallas PD arrives. The lights go on in the theater. The officers spot Oswald. Oswald pulls his gun. But before he can fire, a struggle ensues. Oswald is subdued. They place him under arrest, and they put him in a squad car. On the way to the police station, one of the officers, Paul Bentley, recalled a conversation he had with Oswald. Quote, I asked him inside the car on the way to city hall, did you kill our president? To which Oswald replied, I haven't shot a damn person. As Oswald arrives at the police station, someone asks him if he wanted to hide his face from reporters, and he responds, why should I? I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. As he faces a barrage of questions from the press, there's someone in that gaggle whose name you might remember. Jack Ruby.

It's been a little while since we've heard about him.

He was that local Dallas nightclub owner and low level mobster. Many of the officers would frequent his club. They knew him and they didn't think much of him being there. But like we said in our first episode, if you pull on the Jack Ruby thread, a lot will come loose. In the next episode, we'll give that thread another tug and reveal who sent Ruby to take care of Oswald.

On the next episode of who killed.

JFK, he called me about four or 05:00 and asked me to go down to the police station and check on what security, if any, there was around Lee Harvey Oliver Wall, we take a.

Look at who Jack Ruby really was.

Every line from Jack Ruby goes back to the mob. The mob kills people. Who can tell the true story.

Who killed JFK? Is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Solidad O'Brien, and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English David Hoffman and me, Solidad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinero. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero, and Marcus DeLauro. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is Emile Se Quiros. Mixing mastering and sound design by Ben Laholier. Research and fact checking by girl Friday and Emilce Quiros. Archival audio in this episode, thanks to Getty Images. Odyssey Dick Russell and Rob Reiner business affairs by Henan Narea and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Roseanne Galliani, recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth street recording studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arse, and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who killed JFK? As a production of Soledad O'Brien productions and iHeart podcasts.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliffe, for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Giselle and Robin, and we're the host of Reasonably Shady on the Black Effect podcast Network. This is the podcast that you want to listen to, to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriend. You're driving in the car with your girlfriends. You're having that good girlfriend talk. We do hot topics. We talk about reasonable and shady things. So get into it. Join us every Monday for reasonably shady and tune into the latest season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to reasonably shady on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Professional dancer Cheryl Burke has been part of Dancing with the Stars since the very beginning. 26 seasons of the samba, the Rumba, and the Chacha, 24 partners, six finals, and two mirror ball trophies. She knows all the secrets, the behind the scenes arguments and the affairs, the flings, the flirting and the fighting. Listen to sex, lies, and spray tans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.