On.

March 16th, 2000, two sheriffs' deputies were shot in Atlanta. A Muslim leader and former black power activist was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Moses. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America. From Tenderfoot TV, Campside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world-changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertips feel for social, emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliff, for On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, news anchors Amy Robach and TJ Homes explore everything from current events to pop culture in a way that's informative, entertaining, and authentically groundbreaking. Join them as they share their voices for the first time since making their own headlines.

This is the.

First.

Time that we.

Actually.

Get to say.

What happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's September 20th, 1963. A man in a dark suit walks into a post office in El Paso, Texas. He mails three registered letters, then strolls across the street and enters the state National Bank. He approaches the teller and asks for $100 in American Express Travelers checks. As the teller works on his request, the man in the dark suit pulls out a 45 caliber revolver and fires two shots into the ceiling of the bank. As people duck for cover, the man casually exits the bank. An off-duty police officer named Jim Bundran, who is in the vicinity, hears the shots. Believe it or not, I was on my day off.

That's Officer Bundren.

I heard the shots. Everybody was just shocked.

Right.

And I says, Where is he? And what's he wearing? He said, A blue suit, white shirt, red tie. Hes evidently he had run out of the bank with the gun in his hand, and I know he couldn't have gotten that far ahead of you.

Right.

For this car pulls out of the alley. Then I could see his face was flushed. I could see the white shirt, red tie, and I drew.

He.

Didn't say anything. Officer Bundran arrests him, and as he's being handcuffed, the man in the dark suit invites the officer to look into the trunk of his car. The officer carefully opens the trunk, and in it, he finds a bizarre collection of cameras, photos, and documents. He had a real small, it's called a camera, I think in the news they probably call it a spy camera. Right. And he had his own processing with it. I searched his car and he had pictures of top secret restricted areas, pictures of the inside compounds, and a lot of pictures of dead bodies.

The man in the dark suit is Richard Case Nagle.

That's Dick Russell. Richard Case Nagle is a former US Army veteran, three-time Purple Heart recipient, intelligence officer, and CIA operative.

Nagle arrested and charged with attempted bank robbery.

It is a preliminary hearing. I sat and just talked to him, just like you and I were talking. He says, Well, I'm glad you caught me. He says, I really don't want to be in Dallas. I said, What do you mean by that? He says, You don't want to be in the moon. Nagle was arrested on September 20th, 1963, two months before President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas.

This is Who Killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledad O'Brien.

Now, last episode, we took you through Oswold's bizarre return to the United States. We met his CIA-connected babysitters, George de Mornfield and Ruth Payne, who were tasked with looking out for him. We discussed the time that Oswalt spent in New Orleans, where he was arrested for handing out pro-castro leaflets. We also introduced you to the CIA's head of counterintelligence, James Jesus Angleton, and his wilderness of mirrors. Angleton was known as the poet spy, and he was obsessed with removing Castro from Cuba. Now, it's important to keep all that in mind as we move forward.

So what comes next?

Okay, in New Orleans, in the summer of 1963, while handing out the leaflets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, Oswold gets into a fight with a bunch of anti-castro activists. He's arrested, and the first thing he does is request to speak to an FBI agent. On September 25th, the White House announced that the President will be visiting Dallas in November. Then we start to see a swell of covert activity. Chess pieces are being moved around the board. Richard K. Nagle, the man in the dark suit who shot two bullets into the ceiling of the bank, he's going to give us insight into how all this covert activity will lead us to a history-changing event.

So, Dick, explain to us who is Richard K.

Nagle? Nagle was a decorated veteran, a bronze star medal winner, and a former intelligence officer. As we mentioned earlier, he first met Oswalt in Japan, where they were tasked to try to recruit a Soviet officer to defect.

How did you first encounter Nagle?

I first heard about him from another JFK researcher in the 1970s. I was intrigued hearing about this bronze star medal recipient that claimed to have known Oswalt, so I did some research. I went to El Paso, where he was arrested for the so-called bank robbery. I went through the newspaper and court files there. There were both Secret Service and FBI files saying that he requested, quote, to speak to a Secret Service agent about an urgent matter the afternoon of the assassination. I knew I'd stumbled onto something, so I found out where he lived. I traveled to Manhattan Beach in Southern California, and I just knocked on the door. This shadowy figure with a scar across his face opens the door and asks me what I wanted. I told him I'd come all the way from New York to interview him. After an uncomfortable silence, he let me in. And once we sat down, I asked if I could tape him. And he looked at me and said, No, but I'm going to tape you. So he turned on his tape recorder and we started to talk. And he spoke cryptically, but it was about knowing Oswalt and that he'd been involved in the assassination.

For some reason, he seemed to trust me, so we agreed to meet again, this time at a seedy dive bar because he was aware that his movements were being tracked. It was there that he told me that what he knew about the assassination had ruined his life.

The two continued to meet for 15 years, and eventually in 1992, Dick published his 824-page book about Nagle, called The Man Who Knew Too Much. Take me back to where this all started for Nagle.

In Japan, in 1957 and 1958, Nagle was working for a top secret army intelligence unit that was closely connected to the CIA. It was called Field Operations Intelligence, orFOI, FOI.

The American public didn't know thatFOI existed until Nagle described its mission in a 1974 court document. He said it was, quote, a covert extension of CIA policy and activity designed to conceal the true nature of CIA objectives. He then went on to say, quote, in the event I was apprehended, killed, or compromised during the performance of my illegalFOI duties, the Department of the Army would publicly disclaim any knowledge of or connection with such duties.

In the early 60s, when Nagle came back to the United States, Cuba had become the focus of American intelligence. The CIA gave Nagle the assignment of renouncing his American citizenship and approaching Soviet intelligence to offer his services, much like they'd done with Oswalt. The Soviets then recruited him for their own intelligence gathering.

So he became a double agent?

Correct. The Soviets gave him two missions. One, penetrate a violent group of anti-castro-Cuban exiles. And two, keep an eye on Lee Harvey Oswalt, who had just returned to America.

And were those two missions related?

At first, there was no relationship between Oswalt and that particular group of Cuban exiles. But in the summer of 1963, Nagle went to New Orleans, and that's where he was reconnected with Oswold. He learned that Oswalt was being brought into plans that he didn't fully understand and that plots to assassinate Kennedy were being discussed. Oswold was being primed to be the full guy. But the Soviets, who'd become fully aware of these plans, didn't want Kennedy killed, and they didn't want Oswold to be blamed. They knew it would be pinned on them or Cuba and could trigger a nuclear war.

So what did the Soviets want Nagle to do?

They wanted him to take Oswold out.

You mean to kill him?

Yes.

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On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. Jamil Al-Amin, a Muslim leader and former black power activist, was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Moses Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America.

He said to me, You want me to take care of them for not.

Doing.

Something to pain you or something like that?

I said, No.

What are.

You talking about?

But I had no idea who he had become. That's how he.

Approached you? He said that he thought you were a killer. He said that you were a killer. He said that you were a killer. He said that you were a killer. You know what he meant when he said that?

Yeah, I'm thinking.

Murder.

In a minute. I think that's what he was thinking, too. From Tenderfoot TV, Campside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertips feel for social, emotional networks.

And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have Kansas spray paint, and they're just putting big X's on machines. And it's almost like kids playing on the playground. Just choose them up. Left, right and center. Then like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it. Getting to bars, done excuse being a total. But I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliff, and this is On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four-part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to Ayn Musk on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

They wanted him to take Oswold out.

You mean to kill him?

Yes. Nagle was trapped. His loyalty was to the United States. He knew he couldn't do it. But he also knew that if he ignored the orders from the KGB, they would take.

Him out. Talk about between a rock and a hard place. So what does he do?

First, he tried to warn Oswold that he was being used.

So walk me through that. How did he warn him?

He meets with Oswold in Jackson Square in New Orleans and tries to explain to him that the group of Cuban exiles he's been associated with are not who they say they are, and that he is being used by extreme fascist elements to attempt an assassination on Kennedy in order to justify invading Cuba. Nagle told me that when Oswold… I had heard this, he was, quote, visibly shaken, but denied there had been any discussion about killing Kennedy and just shrugged him off. Nagle knew that when he couldn't convince Oswalt, his life would be at risk. He figured the safest place for him was to be in prison. He told me that just before shooting up the bank, he mailed a registered letter to J. E. G. R. Hoover detailing what he knew about the assassination plot and sent another warning letter to his handlers in the CIA. Then to back up his story, he placed a notebook in his car that contained information that only someone on the inside would have had. Several of the notations were virtually identical to what the authorities later found among Oswalt's possessions. They both had small Minolta spy cameras. They both had leaflets for the fair play for Cuba Committee.

They both had the same unlisted phone number for the Cuban embassy in Mexico City.

Did getting arrested save him?

It kept him alive for a while, but it ended up ruining his life. He was in prison for four and a half years, part of which he spent in a psych ward. That's how they began to build out a narrative that he was nuts.

As a person who's interviewing him, because you're writing your book, how do you navigate that question of his credibility? How do you decide what's true?

First, you assess the existing evidence, which means Nagle's notebook, the fact that he had an ID card for Oswold showing up in his lawyer's files and the newspaper accounts of his trial in El Paso, where he tried to bring up Oswold and the assassination. Second, interview as many people as possible who knew him, and I found many who attested to his background and credibility. A couple of these, Jim Garrison and attorney Bernard Finster-Wall Jr, told me Nagle was the most important living witness to what happened on November 22, 1963. I realized that the powers behind the cover-up were determined to marginalize him. First, paint him as crazy. Then after he got out of prison, the CIA tracked his movements, and there were a number of attempts on his life.

How long were you in contact with him?

I met with him periodically for more than 20 years. During that time, I saw a man who was torn. He wanted to come clean to reveal what he knew, but he knew that if he told everything, he'd be killed. So he would drop hints to steer me in the right direction.

Like Deep Throat in Watergate. Right.

At one point he told me that if anything happened to him, there was a record of everything he knew that he kept stored in various locations and that only certain people were aware of. He believed that's what kept him alive.

He did manage to stay alive.

For a while. Then in 1995, when the Assassin Records Review Board was doing its investigation, they heard me talk about Nagle at a conference and decided that they wanted to interview him. On the day the subpoena arrived at his apartment, Nagle was found dead.

You believe that Nagle was killed before he could talk?

Let me answer that this way. When I called his son to tell him about his father, his son told me that his apartment had just been broken into and was ransacked. Then he told me about his key his dad had left in his apartment to a storage unit in Tucson, and that in that storage unit was a purple trunk which contained material his father had kept hidden for years. When he heard what had happened to his dad, Nagle's son flew to Tucson to check the storage unit. He opened it up, looked inside, and the only thing missing was the purple trunk. So was Nagle killed before he could talk? Yeah, I believe he was.

And he wasn't the only one.

What happened to Nagle happened to others.

Remember George de Maure and Schilt, Oswalt's babysitter in Dallas?

Yeah, you said the last time he talked about the assassination was in an interview he did with a journalist in 1977. What happened after that?

A little over a decade after testifying to the Warren Commission that Oswalt had acted alone, Demore and Schild decided he was going to tell the truth about what he knew. He wrote a manuscript titled, I'm a Patsy, I'm a Patsy, which was later published posthumously as a book titled Lee Harvey Oswalt, as I knew him.

When Demore and Schild started to go public, the House Select Committee decided to summon him. Demore and Schild was living in Florida at the time, not far from Gayton Fonsey.

Remember, Gayton Fonsey is the journalist who challenged Arlin Specter on the single-bullet theory. At the time, Fonzy was working as an investigator for the committee.

Fonzy goes to Demore and Schild's house to talk to him. He isn't home. So he leaves his business card with Demore and Schild's adult daughter. He tells her, and he'll be calling later that night to set a time for a formal questioning. And so when the morantial arrives home, his daughter tells him about Fonzy's visit, gives him Fonzy's business card. The morantial puts the card in his pocket, goes upstairs, and the next morning he's found dead with a bullet in his head with Fonzy's business card still in his pocket.

They said he'd committed suicide, but his wife told me it was definitely not a suicide. And Nagle told me the same thing, that was murdered before he could testify.

There was also mob boss, Johnny Rizeli. Right before he was supposed to testify. He was found chopped up, stuffed into an oil drum, and dumped into Biscayne Bay. There were a number of people who died mysteriously. Within three years after the Warren Commission report was released, 18 key witnesses died of either a heart attack, an accident, or suicide. Something that has always fascinated me is the people who were tangentially involved but managed to survive.

Like Ruth Payne.

Like Ruth Payne.

You'll remember Ruth Payne as one of the CIA-connected people who became close with the Oswold family when they returned to the US.

On September 25th, the White House formally announces that the President will be taking a tour through Texas, stopping at Dallas on November 22nd. That same week, Marina accepts Ruth Payne's invitation to have her and her baby move in with her in Dallas. Then in early October, six weeks before the assassination, Oswoldd returns to Dallas, takes a room at a boarding house, and gets a job in a building position directly along what will be President Kennedy's motorcade route. Who do you think helped him get that job?

Ruth Payne.

Ruth Payne.

There are so many pieces to this picture.

And 60 years later, pieces are still falling into place.

Give a gift of choice this Christmas with a gift card that supports Irish retail. Accepted in thousands of outlets nationwide and online with participating retailers, the one-for-all gift card is a perfect gift for loved ones. Pick up a one-for-all gift card at your local post office and make Christmas shopping easier this year. The one-for-all gift card is issued by GVS Prepaid Europe Limited. Gvs Prepaid Europe Limited is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.

On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. Jamil Al Amin, a Muslim leader and former black power activist, was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Moses Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America.

He said to me, You don't need to take care of them for not.

Doing.

Something to pain you or something like that?

I said, No, what.

Are you.

Talking about?

But I had no idea. But who he had become.

That's how he approached you? You know what he meant when he said that?

Yeah, I'm thinking.

Murder.

In a minute. I think that's what he was thinking too. From Tenderfoot, TV, campside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertips feel for social, emotional networks. And when.

I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have cans of spray paint, and they're just putting big X's on machines. And it's almost like kids playing on the playground. Just choose them up, left, right, and center. And then like, Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it. Getting to bars doesn't excuse being a total, but I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliff, and this is Ayn Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four-part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to Ayn Musk on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Rob, where do you go from here? Nearly 5,000 records remain withheld. Do you think that in those records is one piece of evidence that details the whole plot?

Well, I don't. I really, I don't.

The CIA most likely destroyed anything that would be obviously groundbreaking decades ago.

So then what you're both saying is that in all the remaining records, there is no smoking gun.

I don't think there's anything left that would be considered a smoking gun the way we think of it. The closest thing we have to a smoking gun is a document that the Pentagon kept secret for almost 40 years. This document outlined a plan called Operation Northwoods.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff drafted Operation Northwoods in 1962. It remained a secret until decades later when it was quietly declassified in compliance with the JFK Records Act. But even after the document was declassified, the plan didn't reach the public until 2001, when the investigative reporter, James Bamford, revealed the full details in his book, Body of Secrets. He calls Operation Northwoods, quote, What may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the US government? Here's Jefferson Morley.

Operation Northwoods is one of the most significant revelations about the JFK assassination to come out in the last 25 years.

Operation Northwoods posed this question, what if something were to happen that would convince the American public that the US had to invade Cuba? Something that would force America's hand?

We'll stage a violent incident on a prominent target in the United States, and we'll arrange for it to look like Castro did it. Northwoods was what people in the intelligence business call a pretext operation, where you create a pretext for an action. Or sometimes called a false flag operation.

When you hear the terms false flag or conspiracy theory, you think of people wearing tinfoil hats. But the US government has had a history of false flag operations. In 1898, the sinking of the USS Maine got us into the Spanish-American war.

The USS Maine was a US battleship that mysteriously exploded in Havana, Cuba, in 1898. Remember, the Maine was the famous rallying cry after the press claimed that Spain was to blame for the explosion, which killed 268 sailors. When the government declared war on Spain, they had the overwhelming support from the American public, and that's how the Spanish-American war started.

There was also the firing on US ships in the Gulf of Tonkin in August of 1964, which got us into the Vietnam War. In 2003, the assertion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. Falls flags and disinformation can be very effective tools to rally public support. This is in the actual Operation Northwood's document.

Here's what it says. The Joint Chiefs of Staff have considered the attached memorandum for pretext, which would provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba.

The Northwoods plans were very detailed. We'll fake the hijacking of a plane and we'll take the plane somewhere and we'll say that Castro did it.

Understand, people who would die on that plane would be American citizens.

This phrase is actually written into the Northwood's plan. Casualty lists in the US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

Basically killing American citizens. That's astounding.

A hijacked plane wasn't the only option. Operation Northwoods lists eleven other ideas for, quote, well-coordinated incidents that would look credible, including sinking ships and burning aircrafts. There's one more part that I'd like you to read.

Okay, here's what it says. The desired result from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering, defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba, and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western hemisphere.

Operation Northwoods was kept hidden from the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee. It was only declassified in 1997.

Did Kennedy know about Operation Northwood?

Kennedy knew about it.

What was Kennedy's response?

He rejected it in pretty brisk, almost rude terms.

But on November 22, 1963, a spectacular attack on a US target occurred, and the immediate response was to blame Cuba. November 22, the day President Kennedy was murdered.

You're saying the plan that President Kennedy rejected was the plan they used to kill him?

Right. It was a violent act against a prominent American target, and they had their allegedly pro-castro-assassin, Lee Harvey Oswalt, to take the blame.

That's what happens. Within hours of Kennedy's assassination, Oswalt is arrested and CIA propaganda assets go to work to link him immediately to the Castro government. Those efforts are quite successful. We have the headlines the next day. Pro-castro marksman kills the President, pro-Cuban Assassin.

Robert Blakey, former Chief Counsel and Staff Director of the House Select Committee on assassinations, told us something similar.

If what happened is what I think happened. I think that.

Lee Harvey Oswell.

Was developed as a false flag Assassin.

On the next episode of Who Killed JFK.

President Kennedy had alienated much of.

The US establishment by.

The time he was killed in Dallas.

We looked directly at our three main suspects.

That.

Miami.

Cia field office is more or less the puppeteers of this whole operation. I asked my mom, Where's Papa? And she said he's in Dallas on business.

I'm.

Telling you.

There's no way.

In hell that it could not have been.

A conspiracy.

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and me, Soledad O'Brien. A writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Piñero. Our senior producer is Julie Piñero. Our producers are Trista Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfine, and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Piñero, and Marcus Di Laureau. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Our Associate Producer is Emilce Kidos. Mixing, mastering, and sound design by Ben La Julie. Research and fact-checking by Girl Friday and Emilse Kiros. Archival audio in this episode, thanks to the Assassin Archives and Research Center and Dick Russell. Business Affairs by Helan Nadeya and Jonathan Ferman. Our Consulting Producer is Rosanne Galayini, recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arce, and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform, Who Killed JFK? Is a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions and iHeart Podcasts.

On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. A Muslim leader and former black power activist was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Moses Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America. From Tenderfoot TV, campside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, news anchors Amy Robach and TJ Homes explore everything from current events to pop culture in a way that's informative, entertaining, and authentically groundbreaking. Join them as they share their voices for the first time since making their own headlines.

This is the.

First.

Time that we.

Actually.

Get to say.

What happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world-changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertips feel for social, emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say, I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be, are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliff, for On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.