Transcribe your podcast
[00:00:00]

Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcast called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think this isn't the one for you, listen to Tosh Show on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:31]

My name is Payne Lindsay. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here, truly something going on, and honestly, just whatever the hell is on our mind. Wait a minute.

[00:00:54]

You should be very happy once this.

[00:00:57]

Is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:07]

Hey, this is Carlos Miller here at the 85 South Show. Comedy is king, but we're also here to support and elevate black owned businesses that are doing amazing things on our show, the Black Market. I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the game in every field, like Sublime, Donuts, Good Day Sense Cafe, Bourbon Street, and many more. So tune in to the black market available in the 85 South Show feed. Listen on the I Heart Radio app apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[00:01:45]

On October 21, 1959, four years before the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, an ex Marine by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald sat alone in a hotel room in Moscow, the heart of the Soviet Union. Just weeks shy of his 20th birthday, oswald was attempting to renounce his American citizenship and defect to the Soviet Union. After a few days of waiting, he finally received a letter informing him that his request had been denied. A Soviet official was on the way to escort him out of the country. Disturbed by the news, Oswald made a decision. He walked into the bathroom, ran himself a bath. As steam filled the room, he got into the tub, grabbed a razor, and proceeded to carefully cut into his wrist. As the bathwater turned red, oswald closed his eyes and waited.

[00:02:45]

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host. Solidad O'Brien.

[00:03:02]

In the last episode, we heard about how the Warren Commission had manipulated evidence in order to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman, since they claimed that only three shots were fired from behind and one had missed. That left two shots. The third shot was the fatal shot to the President's head. The second shot came to be known as the Single Bullet Theory. The Warren Commission claimed that this magic bullet entered the President's back went up and out his throat then hit Connolly in his armpit, then his ribs, then his wrist and then his thigh. The majority of the parkland doctors who tended to Kennedy contradicted this. They said that the President's wounds were a result of shots that came from the front which clearly points to shooters in locations other than the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. And that would mean that whatever Lee Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he wasn't doing it alone.

[00:04:06]

Regardless, the record shows that on September 24, 1964 the Warren Commission presented their evidence and formally named Lee Harvey Oswald The Lone Gunman which is the story that persists today.

[00:04:22]

Right? The Commission painted Oswald as a loner a mentally ill Soviet empathizer an ex Marine with an agenda. Even before the Warren Commission report was released the public was fed a steady diet of press stories about Oswald the deranged Lone Gunman.

[00:04:43]

Less than 48 hours after the shooting dallas District Attorney Henry Wade boasted that he had, quote, sent men to the electric chair with less evidence. He went even further to say the following about Oswald, quote I would say that without any doubt, he is the killer. There is no question that he was the killer of President Kennedy. And then on December 10, less than three weeks after the murder the New York Times headline read, quote oswald Assassin beyond a doubt.

[00:05:14]

FBI concludes and here's where I think it's important to dig into this historic moment. The only other murder of a President that carries a similar historic weight is the murder of President Lincoln almost a hundred years earlier. But with Lincoln, there were no TV cameras covering moment to moment updates like there were in the Kennedy assassination. There were no kids like Rob Reiner who were sent home from school and then sat glued to their TVs to watch the whole thing unfold. The public wanted answers. And in that vacuum, a story began to unfold.

[00:05:53]

And it wasn't until years later, after a great deal of investigating that a much different story would unfold. And that story starts with the words of Lee Harvey Oswald I'm just a patsy, President. I'm just a patsy.

[00:06:12]

A patsy is a guy who takes the fall for somebody else's scheme. A person who's manipulated into a position that ultimately leaves them powerless.

[00:06:22]

If you don't learn who Lee Harvey Oswald really was there's no way you can understand what happened on that day.

[00:06:31]

I'd like to understand more about who Oswald was his childhood, what motivated him. Kind of like, I guess I'm asking for pop. Psych 101 on Oswald.

[00:06:44]

Oswald grew up in a broken home.

[00:06:46]

That's Dick Russell.

[00:06:48]

He never knew his father, who had died before he was born in 1939. His mother, Marguerite, placed him at a very young age in New Orleans with his two older brothers. And so he spent time in foster care when he was very young.

[00:07:03]

Did he stay in New Orleans his entire childhood?

[00:07:07]

He ends up kind of bouncing around with his mother between various places, and when he's 13 years old, they move to New York City. According to the official Warren Commission record, he stayed away from school, and there were truancy charges that came up against him. So in the spring of 1953, he was remanded to a place called the Youth House in New York for psychiatric observation. And the chief psychiatrist there was a man who would later testify before the Warren Commission. His name was Dr. Renatus Hartogs.

[00:07:40]

Hello, Dr. Hartoggs. Yes? This is Dick Russell. I'm the writer who called you the other day. So tell me what's on your mind. Okay. I'm as I said, doing some research.

[00:07:51]

Into the Warren Commission. Hertog said Oswald had a cold, detached, outer attitude and viewed his life in sort of a non participating fashion. He had a vivid fantasy life and turning around topics of omnipotence and power. So Hartogg said he had diagnosed the teenage Oswald as a kid with personality pattern disturbance, schizoid features, and passive aggressive tendencies.

[00:08:18]

Hartogs testified that Oswald's psyche was so abnormal that he wanted to continue to examine them, and he did. So he placed the teenage Oswald in a three week study. And here you have the beginning of a narrative that starts to develop.

[00:08:37]

But that narrative and really everything we hear from Hartogs has to be understood through the lens of who Hartogs actually was. So let's look deeper into his past and the people he associated with.

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Today is my 86th birthday. Today is happy birthday. I'm an old man. See? I'd also heard that didn't you work in the Dr. Mallets? Dr. Who? Sydney Mallets. No, I didn't. The name sounds familiar to me, but he worked at Presbyterian. Oh, no. Really? Not okay. All right.

[00:09:20]

What Hartogs was telling me was not true. Sidney Malletz, who was a professor of psychology at the time, was under contract for the CIA. And evidence shows that Hartogs worked closely with Dr. Malletz on a Hypnosis program that was highly classified. Hartogs would tell the Commission that he found Oswald's personality so intriguing that he chose him for a seminar subject.

[00:09:45]

What do you mean by that?

[00:09:46]

The CIA was working with troubled kids, finding troubled kids in various places and grooming them in different ways. And they would track them over the years to see if at some point they might be useful. Not too long before he died, I had a long interview with Sidney Gottlieb, who ran the CIA's Technical Services Division from the early 50s into the 1970s. He told me about how the government experimented with LSD after it was introduced to the States in 1948. So frankly, nothing known about it. At this time, we decided, a group of people and myself, that we needed simply to find out a lot about this material in a hurry. And that's what led to MKUltra. MKUltra is a code name for an illegal human experimentation program designed by the CIA. The goal was to find a way to control the human mind. And they were experimenting also with so called brainwashing. Like most government programs, it took off and it got know and then it was hard to stop it. They gave LSD to the subjects without their consent along with electroshocks, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, and other forms of torture.

[00:11:10]

I used to muse a lot about, boy, this is the only place you can do illegal things legally. In a way, isn't this great? And you got the whole blessings of this powerful government.

[00:11:21]

So are you saying you think Lee Harvey Oswald might have been part of the MKUltra program?

[00:11:29]

There's no way to know for certain. But it seems this was the backdrop against which Oswald and other young people were cultivated.

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What we know for sure is that Oswald had a troubled past. And after being studied by Dr. Hart Hoggs at age 16, he tried to enlist in the Marines. He wanted to serve his country. He was turned down. And then the next year he tried again. And this time he got in where's he sent.

[00:11:58]

1St September of 1957, he's assigned to the Atsugi Naval Air Base just outside Tokyo. In the years after World War II, japan became ground zero for Cold War espionage and Atsugi was the American base in the area. It was a hotbed of activity. There were a number of intelligence groups operating out of Tokyo, including the CIA and a group known as Field Operations Intelligence, or FOI. I'll get into FOI later. At Sugi is where U two spy planes were stationed to fly secret missions over the Soviet Union. Oswald became a radar operator and would certainly have been privy to the fact that these U two planes were flying out of Atsugi and going on these missions.

[00:12:46]

Yeah, and even though he's just a radar operator, kind of a low level guy, oswald is hanging out at a place called the Queen Bee, which is one of the most expensive, exclusive nightclubs in Tokyo.

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Oswald was earning less than $85 a month in take home pay. And typically you'd go to the Queen Bee and it would cost you $65 to $100 for the night. Oswald, he didn't have any of the money to do that. I mean, it was basically a night spot that catered to pilots, including you two officers, not Marine privates.

[00:13:21]

So you have this young Marine who didn't finish high school, this oddball loner hanging out at an exclusive officer's club. What is he doing there?

[00:13:32]

What was he doing there?

[00:13:34]

Well, one night he's having a good time. He's spending time with a beautiful Japanese woman. When he is spotted by an intelligence officer named Richard Case Nagel, someone that we're going to hear a lot about throughout the podcast.

[00:13:49]

I interviewed Nagel throughout the 1970s. Eventually wrote a book about him called The Man Who Knew Too Much. For now, all you need to know is that in the late 50s he was working for an intelligence group called Field Operations Intelligence operating out of Tokyo. Nagel told me that both he and Oswald later became part of an operation that tried to convince a Soviet colonel named Nikolai Arashkin to defect to the United States. It was an intelligence priority to try to get high level Soviets to defect. And Oswald was part of this.

[00:14:24]

Were they successful?

[00:14:26]

No. But Oswald was doing more than just trying to meet women at the Queen Bee. His OD tenure in the Marines was just getting started.

[00:14:35]

After atsugi didn't he go back to the United States? For a little while.

[00:14:40]

He goes home shortly before Christmas on 1958 and he spends a month's leave with his mother. And then he reports to Marine Air Control Squadron Number Nine in Santa Ana, California. The Marines who served with him there said that they often called him Comrade Oswaldkovich because, he know, start talking about the wonders of Karl Marx. Another Marine who was stationed with him, guy named David Bucknell, said that Oswald told him he was going to be discharged and he was going to Russia to go to work on an assignment for American intelligence.

[00:15:15]

And then there's tosh plumley.

[00:15:17]

Tosh Plumley worked for the US. Army and military intelligence in the 1950s. In the 60s, he became a CIA operative. He was a mercenary pilot.

[00:15:29]

1959 was the beginning of Nagshead, North Carolina. That was propaganda training, special operations, illusionary warfare training. And the object there was training us to take over communication sites and spread propaganda.

[00:15:46]

Was that the first time you met Oswald?

[00:15:48]

Yeah.

[00:15:49]

That's when I first run into Lee.

[00:15:51]

And at that point, you knew that you were an operative for the CIA?

[00:15:57]

I knew I was in Special Ops, but I wasn't sure. I knew something funny was going on. Of course, in those days you got to take into account that we figured whatever the government told us and whatever military told us and whatever was printed in the media was gospel truth.

[00:16:13]

Was Oswald part of that?

[00:16:15]

I was under the impression that Lee, he was an operative and he was being trained for a specific operation. I was under the impression at that point that this man, this kid that I met my age was part of the old original recruitment of young teenagers getting in trouble.

[00:16:33]

Now, it wasn't only Plumlee who said this. Victor Marquetti, who was a CIA official who then wrote a very well known book in the 1970s that exposed a lot of things the CIA didn't want out.

[00:16:45]

The book is called The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence. It refers to itself as, quote, the first book the US. Government ever went to court to censor before publication.

[00:16:56]

The program in North Carolina was designed to leave the impression that these young, troubled men had become Communist sympathizers to make them appear to be disenchanted with the American system.

[00:17:09]

Marquetti's book alleges that. In 1959. The US. Was struggling to get information out of the Soviet Union. So they ran this operation out of Nag's head on about 40 young men.

[00:17:23]

The CIA was trying to gain an advantage against the Soviets. They wanted to have a group of young men under their control, to be thought of as red. So they cultivated these young men to look like legitimate Communist sympathizers for potential use in covert operations. And Lee Harvey Oswald was there?

[00:17:43]

Primarily. He was recruited, I think, at that point in time to be a defector, disgruntled person to go to Russia. And I think that U Two assignment was a cover in order to get him into Russia.

[00:17:58]

So two different people who knew him in the Marines say the same thing, that Oswald was preparing to defect to the USSR as a fake defector. So how exactly does the U Two assignment factor into that?

[00:18:15]

Well, having information about the United States top secret spy plane establishes him as a potential high value asset to the KGB. Now, you combine that with the fact that he's learning Russian, he's preaching Marx, and he appears to be unhappy with America.

[00:18:33]

Oswald then requests a dependency discharge to take care of his mother, where they grant the discharge to him three months ahead of when he's scheduled to be released from the Marines.

[00:18:43]

And what does he do on the day he's discharged from the Marines? Does he go to take care of his mother? No. He picks up a new passport.

[00:18:51]

So he's about to go to Russia?

[00:18:54]

Yes, ma'am.

[00:19:03]

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[00:20:02]

Danger, no hope of a bad. This little lane here is where he'll try sleep instead. The shop fronts are closing as he walks with no haim and with nowhere worth going, he'll stay out in the rain.

[00:20:24]

Christmas isn't Christmas when you're homeless.

[00:20:26]

Donate now to Dublin simon at dubsimon ie.

[00:20:30]

Hi.

[00:20:30]

I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh Show, brought to you by Iheart Podcast. Why am I getting to the podcast game now? Well seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to. Instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text, I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting. So not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's Gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling. But mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid forty s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I'd hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss show on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:21:35]

On September 1059, Oswald sails from New Orleans to London. And then he catches a flight from London to Helsinki, Finland. After waiting five days for his passport to arrive, he takes a train from Finland to Moscow.

[00:21:52]

When Oswald leaves the US. He's got a bank account that has a little more than $200. And the trip is going to cost at least one $500.

[00:22:02]

So is the assumption here that US. Intelligence is actually secretly footing the bill?

[00:22:09]

Not only footing the bill, but guiding him on where to go, how to cross the border. And he seemed to know exactly what route to take.

[00:22:19]

According to people like David Talbot, all of this starts to paint a clear picture.

[00:22:25]

He was inserted, I believe, as a spy. He was a false defector.

[00:22:30]

There's actual proof that Oswald was a spy.

[00:22:34]

You were told by people in the Tokyo station that Oswald had been sent to Russia on a CIA mission? That's right. When I first read this, I didn't really believe it. And then I started getting curious.

[00:22:50]

1976, I interviewed CIA Officer James Wilcott. At the time Oswald was there, he worked in the finance department of the CIA, stationed in Tokyo. He issued checks to secret agents, although they were all listed under code names under oath. He told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he was aware that Oswald was a paid agent for the CIA.

[00:23:15]

I had paid out funds for Oswald over some period of time for the Oswald project. And the story I got was that he was sent to the Soviet Union as a double agent.

[00:23:30]

So there are Marines saying Oswald told them he was going to be a fake defector and now a CIA accountant saying he actually paid Oswald. If Oswald was employed by the CIA, something they denied for decades, how was that not headline news?

[00:23:47]

The New York Times really distorted and warped my testimony that I gave before the House of our Committee.

[00:23:58]

The New York Times says that there are, quote, several discrepancies in the recollections of Mr. Wilcott. It describes Wilcott as, quote, support staff, a low level worker. It says he cracked Oswald's codename as a result of hearsay at the agency months after the assassination. It is a brutal write up.

[00:24:18]

The CIA immediately denied Wilcott's accusation. And after his testimony, wilcott was put under surveillance and harassed. His tires were slashed. Sugar was poured into his gas tank. He got a new job, and then his new employer fired him because even he was getting harassed, all to discredit him.

[00:24:40]

The CIA has been doing this kind of stuff for years. People like James Angleton made their way up the CIA organizational chart by mastering the art of disinformation. So discrediting Wilcott was just another flavor of the same manipulation that they used on Oswald.

[00:24:58]

He was just what he said he was a patsy.

[00:25:02]

So what's Oswald's first move when he gets to Russia?

[00:25:07]

He goes into the American Embassy and he throws down his passport and he says, I want to dissolve my American citizenship. So he's directed to a man named Richard Snyder, who is a consular official in the embassy who used to work for the CIA.

[00:25:23]

Snyder testified to the Warren Commission that something was off about Oswald.

[00:25:28]

Oswald hands Snyder a note affirming that his allegiance is to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[00:25:34]

Then Oswald makes this very public proclamation that he wanted to defect and that he had top secret information about the U two spy plane to offer to the Soviets. And Snyder says, and this is a quote he would make available to the Soviet Union such knowledge as he had acquired while in the Marine Corps concerning his specialty.

[00:25:56]

Snyder said that, quote, this was part of a scene he had rehearsed before coming into the embassy. It was a pre planned speech. And it wasn't just Snyder who thought it was weird. There was another official there named John McVicker who testified to the Warren Commission that he thought Oswald was following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by a person or persons unknown.

[00:26:20]

This is a pivotal moment. One of the first things the American public was told about Oswald after the assassination was that he was an ex Marine that had defected to the Soviet Union. It was a huge part of the narrative. The Warren Commission said that Oswald defected to the Soviet Union because he was a troubled young man. They never reported the fact that the CIA had a program to cultivate fake defectors. This wasn't known until the Church Committee revealed it in the mid 70s. So you have two competing narratives. One, Oswald was interested in becoming a Soviet citizen was willing to betray America and become a traitor. Or two, he was instructed by the CIA as part of an intelligence operation.

[00:27:10]

I want to know how the embassy officials, Snyder and McVicker, respond to Oswald.

[00:27:18]

Snyder tries to talk Oswald out of renouncing his citizenship and then he sends a confidential telegram to the State Department which is forwarded to the CIA.

[00:27:29]

You see, Oswald knows that U. S. Intelligence is going to be made aware if he starts offering secrets and speaking out loud like this to the Soviets. He's putting on a show.

[00:27:41]

Those reports reached Angleton's office in early.

[00:27:45]

November, 1959 that's Jefferson Morley, again creator of JFKFacts.org.

[00:27:52]

Angleton opens the CIA's first file in Oswald. He was of interest to the highest counterintelligence officer in the CIA for four years before President Kennedy was killed.

[00:28:04]

Did they track all of his movements during that period? Yes, they did.

[00:28:08]

All of his communications through the State Department were immediately passed to the CIA. The FBI and J. Edgar Hoover had an interest in Oswald. All of their paperwork on Oswald was forwarded to Angleton's people. The CIA had this pretty thick file on Oswald. This is a fact that the CIA would spend decades denying. It was only in 1976 when one of Angleton's staff members revealed to the House Committee that she was instructed to open a file on Oswald.

[00:28:41]

They were watching him for four years before the assassination. And there can only be two reasons for this. Either he was in the Soviet Union on a mission or he was a bona fide defector that had offered to give the Soviet top secret information.

[00:28:59]

Obviously, the Russians suspect something is going on with this guy. The Russian authorities tell him, your visa has expired and you've got to leave Moscow right away.

[00:29:10]

So what does he do? He goes into his hotel room and he fakes a suicide attempt and creates an incident.

[00:29:16]

You think he faked his suicide in order to force the Soviets to keep him there?

[00:29:22]

I do. He's a low level Marine on assignment, and he just failed. He's got to do something drastic in order to stay in the country.

[00:29:31]

They rush him into a psychiatric hospital for observation and he stays there for a week. I was told that the KGB thought that he fit the profile for psychologically conditioned agents. They decided to study him further so he didn't have to leave.

[00:29:47]

And they say, all right, you can stay and we'll just keep an eye on you. Because they don't want this international incident to be on their watch.

[00:29:55]

And then he drops out of sight in December and nobody in the US hears from him for over a year.

[00:30:01]

Which starts to raise concerns for a certain person.

[00:30:13]

Copilot provides dedicated fitness coaching, nutrition guidance, personalized workouts, and progress tracking through an easy to use app. But most importantly, a real human expert is available to guide you. I just started my Copilot journey, and I'm obsessed. I met with my trainer Brooke, and she could not be more helpful. We talked about my fitness goals, and she created a custom workout plan that fit perfectly into my life that could be done at home or in the gym. My coach made sure to take into account a recent injury I had and made sure to tailor my workouts to strengthen that muscle. And since I get to talk with my trainer through the app every day via text, video messages, or live calls, I know I'm being held accountable and supported on this fitness journey. And clients can switch coaches anytime in the app if they don't think their coach is the right fit for them. Copilot is fitness MadeEasy. Visit mycopilot.com betrayal to get a 14 day free trial with your own personal trainer.

[00:31:11]

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[00:31:42]

Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by Iheart Podcasts. Why am I getting to the podcast game now? Well, seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to. Instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling. But mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid forty s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss show on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:32:48]

Oswald's mother, Marguerite, goes to see Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State in the US. Somehow gets in to see him this is all on record, too and shouts that her son was a government agent and how. Come she hasn't heard from him in almost a year.

[00:33:04]

How does Oswald's mom just get in to see?

[00:33:10]

I've wondered that, too.

[00:33:12]

Who gets access to Rusk like that? Does Rusk do anything? Does Oswald know about this?

[00:33:20]

Word gets back to him somehow in the Soviet Union that mom is worried about it. Two days later, Oswald writes her a letter.

[00:33:29]

As it turns out, he was living pretty comfortably in the Soviet Union for the last year, by Communist standards, anyway.

[00:33:36]

They send him to Minsk in a whole different part of the Soviet Union where he's greeted by the mayor personally, and they promise him a free apartment while he works at a radio TV factory where he earns as much money as the director.

[00:33:50]

In Minsk, he meets a teenager named Marina. Her uncle is a colonel in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which is basically the Soviet version of the FBI. They work closely with the KGB.

[00:34:02]

So wait a minute. Her uncle is a colonel in their FBI? That's the girl that Oswald just happens to meet.

[00:34:10]

He meets Marina at this dance. He introduces himself as Alec. She thinks he's a Russian citizen because he speaks Russian so well.

[00:34:18]

It is suspected that Marina's uncle encouraged her to go to the dance that night.

[00:34:24]

Here's journalist David Talbot again, that was.

[00:34:27]

Basically an espionage operation. It was a way to keep tabs on him. So I think the Soviet authorities were on to him right away and watch him very carefully. After only a few weeks of knowing Marina, he proposes to her.

[00:34:44]

So now Oswald finds himself married into the network of the KGB, and all.

[00:34:51]

While the CIA is watching him.

[00:34:53]

So with all these interests converging on him, this guy's got some baggage.

[00:34:57]

Which is why his next move is pretty shocking.

[00:35:01]

He writes to the American Embassy asking for arrangements to be made for him to return to the United States with Marina.

[00:35:09]

Isn't it weird that he's coming back to the US. Given that he defected and denounced the US. I asked David Talbot, so what happened when he left the Soviet Union?

[00:35:20]

He came home to the US. With great ease.

[00:35:23]

He was not molested by the authorities.

[00:35:26]

When he came here. In fact, he was given a loan by the State Department to come back from Russia.

[00:35:30]

Wait, they gave him money?

[00:35:32]

The Ins even offered Marina an exemption from the standard immigration quotas. So she came with him along with their baby daughter, June.

[00:35:42]

They never asked him anything about what he might have been involved in over there? Or did he give secrets away? What about the u two? None of these things came up. Anyone who claimed to be a defector said he was going to give military secrets to the Soviet Union. Height of the Cold War would have been clamped in irons. Unless they knew he was an espionage agent.

[00:36:04]

All right, so, Rob, I'm going to need you to speak very slowly and very clearly what the hell is going on?

[00:36:12]

I'll try to make it as simple as I can. First, as a misfit kid, he's welcomed into the Marines. And then he shipped to Japan, where he gets a security clearance to be a radar plane operator. On the U two spy plane, he learns Russian, he defects to Russia. Then after two years, he returns to the US. With his Russian wife and is welcomed with open arms. The obvious explanation this is all done on behalf of the CIA.

[00:36:43]

And in less than 18 months of his return to the United States, he'll take a job at the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, Texas.

[00:36:53]

Right. But a lot would happen in those 18 months.

[00:36:59]

On the next episode of Who Killed JFK? We uncover secrets in a place known as the Wilderness of mirrors. What does sheep dipping mean?

[00:37:10]

It's somebody who is inserted into an operation to make it look like they're part of it, but they may not even know quite what's happened to them.

[00:37:20]

We follow Oswald through the eyes of those who are watching him. Like Richard K snagel.

[00:37:25]

He tried to warn Oswald that he was being used, that people he thinks are his friends are not.

[00:37:31]

By sheer accident, he stumbled on the.

[00:37:34]

Fact that there was an assassination seriously planned. And because of that knowledge, he was in jeopardy.

[00:37:44]

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Solidad O'Brien. And our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, matt George, jason English, David Hoffman and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinehetto. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero and Marcus DeLauro. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Archival audio in this episode. Thanks to Getty Images dick Russell and Rob Reiner Our associate producer is Emile Se quiros mixing, mastering and sound design by Ben Laholier music by APM research and fact checking by Girl Friday and Emilce Quiros business affairs by Hemnan Narea and Jonathan Furman our consulting producer is Roseanne Gallellini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistance by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Barron. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arse and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who killed JFK? As a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions.

[00:39:14]

And Iheart podcasts.

[00:39:28]

Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think this isn't the one for you. Listen to Toss show on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:39:59]

My name is Payne Lindsay. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here, truly something going on. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our mind. Wait a minute.

[00:40:23]

You should be very happy at once.

[00:40:26]

This is talking to death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:40:36]

Hey, this is Carlos Miller here at the 85 South Show. Comedy is king, but we're also here to support and elevate black owned businesses that are doing amazing things on our show, The Black Market. I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the game in every field, like Sublime Donuts good day. Since cafe, Bourbon Street and many more. So tune in to the Black Market, available in the 85 South Show feed. Listen on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.