Welcome, welcome. Welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dax shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Good morning.

Good morning. You have copped to this once or twice. I feel like this one caught me off guard. I got a little starstruck.

Yes.

Could you feel it?

I could.

You could?

Yeah. I thought it was nice.

Yeah, I really was. I was a bit starstruck.

Yeah. It's.

Kevin Costner delivers. Well, first of all, let's just say, my goodness. Fuck. I mean, the pictures will be up. You could go look, but I don't even know. It couldn't possibly do it justice. He looks so fucking good.

Yeah. He looks so, so good.

Oh, my God.

In real life, he was so stylish.

Yes. And so tan.

Yes. Very suave.

God, he had a nice tan. I kind of just was, like, charmed right out of the gates. And he had a real rascally smile every now and then. He'd let rip.

He did. He was fun. He had a great energy. I do feel like I get why you were a bit off kilter. Because he's old school. He's like an old movie star. Not old. I mean, he's like a legend. Yes, he's a legend.

And I think I was like. I was reminded of that when I researched him before he got here. I kept looking at credit and going like, oh, my God, of course. It's like when you're looking at Spielberg's and you're like, oh, right. And he did that.

And he did that.

Right.

So, yeah, Costner. I was just like, oh, God, the bodyguard.

Yeah. We get into that and it's so good.

Yeah. Dances with wolves, the Untouchables, Waterworld, Yellowstone. And he has a new film. Well, he has two new films that are coming out called Horizon, an american saga. And it's broken into two. The first one comes out on June 28, and part two comes out on August 16 in the movie theater. It's so huge and grand in scope. It's a western.

And this is gonna be four parts.

Yes. This might be the most ambitious movie project I've ever heard about.

Really, really cool.

Boy, did he charm the slacks off of us. Please enjoy Kevin Costner. He's an archer expert. He's an armchair expert.

Is that chair too big for you, Monica?

No.

Your feet don't crack?

No. You should see me in this one.

Like you have a timeout.

Who's this?

Hi.

Hi.

It's just little old me.

Okay, great. Come have a seat. We're just talking tour busses.

I'll hide in the corner somewhere.

Oh, no, you're right there, boss.

Yeah, you're fine.

Yeah, yeah.

Are you the cleaner when he kills us? Are you going to. You're the fixer.

There we go.

What's your name?

Arnold.

Arnold.

Arnold. We've been together a long time.

Nice to meet you. How long?

23 years.

Wow.

23 years.

That's so nice.

That's pretty nice.

Have you ever done a podcast?

I did one this morning.

You did? Whose did you do?

Indiewire.

Indiewire.

And I've done Adam about five years ago.

Corolla.

Corolla. Yeah.

Okay.

We're pals. He's just a funny guy.

Stern?

Yeah. Have you done stern?

Yeah. Is that a podcast?

It's not, but it's long form.

I've never done Howard.

Oh, you haven't?

I don't think I have.

Next.

You can't do it in an hour.

Is it next? Jesus, Dax.

Home.

Stop.

They've got you booked until midnight.

I'm gonna work today. I just got back from France, and I'm gonna do this. And I gotta do something for Memorial Day parade. I'm not really sure what that's about. Then I'm gonna see Jimmy Kimmel.

Yeah.

And then I'm flying back to Utah to direct three.

You start next week?

No, I shot three days, stopped everything, went to France, screened the movie because it was important for us, as kind of essentially an independent movie, to throw as much light as I could on what we've been doing because people have been wondering about it. So it was out there for the film festival. It was something I had imagined a couple years ago, earlier, that I was going to need to do that. And thank God they took the movie and gave us a really nice placement on the weekend. And I was able to bring out seven of my actresses. The movie's very heavy on women and, wow, talk about girls who know how to walk the red carpet. Jesus. When they had their moment, they really had the walk. Snapped their hair back. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

One leg goes out.

Well, when I walk the carpet with my wife, she's got about seven different poses, and I stand there with the same confused look on my face and I'm like, am I supposed to adjust with her?

You get your hair going, right?

Yeah. Well, occasionally I'll throw it over my.

Shoulder the way she can, like, wreck your neck.

You can really injure yourself.

This is a can.

This was a can walking out.

You got a seven minute standing ovation and you got rightly so emotional.

I did. It was about eleven minutes, actually. Because the first four, they were clapping when it was dark. And finally I thought, you should maybe turn the lights on and find out what's happened.

Right, right. If they arrested someone, they got up.

And they kept clapping. And what happened when the lights came up? It kept going. I did get emotional, actually. My eyes filled. There's 2500 people there in that theater.

Oh, my God. Really? That many?

And Bertolucci said so accurately, it's like the last place where 2500 people can sit in the dark and dream the same dream. I don't know exactly what's happening and I can fill the balcony. And all of a sudden I went back in time. They kept clapping, but suddenly the sound went away from me. And I went back to. This started in 1988 for me and couldn't make it in 2003 and decided that in 2003, since nobody liked it, I'd make four more.

So you don't want one on your.

No. It's like from a therapy point of view. Kevin, did you hear? They didn't like the first one. You heard that though, right? And you did what? You wrote four more. You know that big question. Why?

We hope to uncover that today.

Right. And so what happened was I started going backwards and I got emotional. And my children were there. I had five of my children. Two of my boys were in tuxes and my three little girls were all dressed up and they were watching too. And they got a little startled by it. My son had not ever seen me be that emotional.

You know what's ironic, right? Is you. And I would pray that when that camera's on us in the scene that we could get to that spot. But then there it happens in real life. And there's this hesitation, right?

There was a hesitation. I was holding back because here's the camera. But I can see this hundred foot screen behind him and that's me. And I looked and I could see my eyes were full. And I thought, good fuck. That's not crying. But I walked backwards. And finally I thought I should bring this to a stop. So I didn't know there was gonna be remarks. I didn't know that that was expected. And so I was a little bit caught there too.

I guess the screen behind you is the big part. That's basically like doing your scene in front of video village. Like watching yourself, right? Yeah. Did you walk back in time? Not just from the story of the movie that then came to fruition so many years later, but did you have that kind of awareness of, like. Like, wow, this has been a pretty long walk. I've taken. And to land here, minimally, you gotta recognize, well, this is a unique experience. Not a lot of people get to have this moment.

Yeah, that's a whole town focused on film. And at that moment, it was focused on us. It was lots of ups and downs and just trying to stay true to it, trying to not let it be manipulated and wondering why I'm such a knothead. But there it is. There's no apologies for it. I don't know if you've gotten to see them.

I did. I watched it two nights ago. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's also at an interesting time in history. And we'll get into that where we have a lot more layers of accepted behavior. These people are out in the middle of fucking nowhere, having not gone to school, having not lived anywhere where they would have observed elders passing anything. These are like Renegade lone wolf crazy.

People in search of something to do with this movie. Is that historically, movies? The towns are already there. It's like, what? What, do they pop up after a rain and they're mushrooms.

Yeah, you're right. They're building like one church. Generally, when we arrive, these towns were.

Built and burnt down. It's a 200 year experiment.

I think we're getting a little deep into it. Monica, maybe you didn't see it. She's the voice of the audience at all times.

I watch the movie so that I know when we're getting too esoteric or not. And I am a bit confused.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So, in general, this is a really, really expansive story. And it's funny following three or four different sets of people in three or four different areas of the west during the four year span of the civil war.

Actually, what happens is it's before it a little bit. It's a ten year thing, and we start a couple years before the civil war starts. We don't really deal with the civil war. But what we're saying is when you historically know the west, you realize that when the civil war was actually going on, the people that were coming west were way more exposed. Why? Because there was no army. The army was busy fighting the civil war. Yes, the military had a presence out there. They were actually scared too. This one guy says, look, you can count the indigenous. You count us, and you don't have to wonder at the logic.

Yeah, we'll be killed in a second if they decide.

That's right. That line in there, they could rid.

Us in one day's war, 18,000 Apache or 100 and whatever of that.

So it's a saga. And then it passes that time. And of course, in about the next 20 years, the west shut down after the civil war. So it's a migration west of people who don't know each other, all headed to a spot that looks like maybe they can have a life because the salesman put pretty pictures on it, said they can catch trout. And none of those things, of course, are there. But if you watch television now on the 800 channel, people are selling shit all the time.

Well, think about even California and its history. We were sending huge train loads of oranges east to go like, look what we have in the middle of winter, begging people to come out here.

Now we're like, please stay away. Yeah, I actually didn't know that, but that makes a lot of showing off.

All these people where I'm from, Detroit are in the middle of winter. They haven't had a fresh vegetable or fruit in three months. And this train car of fresh oranges arrives.

Do you know Mike Binder?

Funny enough, I have him on my list to bring up. Yeah, Binder and I are friends. And it occurred to me during my research that you guys are buddies.

Michigan is really big for him.

Yeah. I enjoyed watching you play a retired tiger in upside.

Mike, that was a brilliant screenplay. So you are going to have to get out of that big chair someday and go see the movie. Like a big.

Of course I will.

I'm excited.

One thing you'll notice right away that in american west, women are dominant in my movie. I think you'd probably agree with that. Surprisingly so.

So there's a few different groups we're following. And of course their stories are slowly being funneled into this place, horizon. We have some things set in Montana, and then we have Luke Wilson driving a convoy or caravan through Kansas and that trail. And then we have where horizon is, which I'm guessing is Utah.

No, it's down in Arizona.

Arizona, okay.

Off the San Pedro river. So it's the first hundred pages of a novel, if you will. You're setting your story and you're setting these people. And some people are getting there on purpose, and some will get there by coincidence.

There's a bunch of themes, I think, being explored, but it's really fascinating that the characters in this movie, the civil war's not even happening for them. They are so far removed. It makes me think about our access to everything currently. Like, you could be anywhere in the world and you can be actively watching a couple different wars happen right now. But there was this ability to exist in whatever little pocket of reality you were in back then, you couldn't follow something. You might get a newspaper at some.

Point, but, by the way, there was never a safe day for them. Every day was work. Every day was keeping your family fed, keeping them clean, if you could. It was nothing but work. Women, for that 200, 300 year span, were working themselves to death.

I mean, one of the fascinating things I learned about the old west, which is really telling of how scarce everything was, is when they built structures and then they moved on, they burnt down the houses to reclaim the nails. Nails were so rare that they had to burn down the houses to gather up the nails so they could build again.

No, it's true. I mean, a little girl passes a biscuit to the boy, and he takes it. He's gonna put it in. She goes, no, my mom needs that cloth. She'll know that it's gone.

Nothing's disposable.

That's why the sharing of food, probably nothing more important in life. If you want to have a bond with somebody, share food with them.

Yeah.

And what they started to understand was maybe if they're gonna exist on this land, maybe they need, with their technology, to, like, leave a deer that they shot out to. The indigenous say, thank you, this is rent.

A little act of good faith.

Right? And we were kind of willing to do that when our numbers were, you know, please don't hurt us. But the minute there's a tipping point, we just treated the indigenous like they were an inconvenience in their own country.

Yes. Okay, we're gonna dive into the movie a bunch. But I do want to go back to Cannes in the moment there, because I am going to guess that through the course of this really illustrious and incredible career, it's fun to research someone like you to be reminded, for me, american flyers, that is a seminal movie for me that my brother and I watched over and over and over again on. On tv. It just played and played and played and played. I remember how much time I spent with that specific movie, and then going through all of them, so many incredible projects throughout that ride and the journey. I'm imagining you're human, like all of us, and you have different periods of feeling worthy of that and feeling perhaps, imposter syndrome y or not worthy. Before I proceed. Those feelings, have you had those in the past?

I had the feeling that I was never going to make it.

And then when you do, it's kind of like, well, this feels a little too good to be true. You're kind of waiting for them to knock at the door and go, like, big mix up. So sorry.

Once I got through the door, I kind of went pretty fast.

You sure did.

It wasn't Tom sliding across, across the floor at 18. It was for me, 27, 28. And so I was a stage manager at Raleigh, working for $3.25 and Richard Guerra and Mel Gibson and Nicholas Cage and Timothy Hutton and Sean Penn. At a certain moment, maybe I wasn't going to get a part so far out of reach. So at one point I even said, they can only do two movies a year. I need to see everything that somebody's turning down. I drove my agent crazy. I want to know if they've walked past something great or they just can't get to it because they've committed to something down the line. I said, let's chase that idea. And so my agent thought, what are you thinking about, buddy? Actors all want to have agents, but you got to realize that you get 90% of the money. Maybe you're supposed to do 90% of the work.

Yeah, true, true, true.

I had an idea about myself. You know, when you do look at the breadcrumbs of your life, when you walk it back, you measure your life different, certainly, than anyone else does. And so somebody who looks at the tips of these icebergs of whatever you want to say, when do you think it happened? I have a different view of when it happened for me. For me, when I got the big chill driving down the freeway, knowing I got the park, I knew my life had changed. Well, guess what? I didn't even end up in the movie. But the point was your hand did, I think. But I knew. Stop with that. Stop with the research.

Unforgettable hand.

If you don't have a real grasp of your career, then you're kind of wandering. When I got that part, I knew I was with the right people. I was with the right director. I would absorb everything. Yes, I had a moment. I wasn't in the movie, but I realized that wasn't going to be my last movie in my own mind.

Well, you made an impact on Larry Kasdan. Clearly.

He made a big difference in my life. Both watching him behave, watching the rehearsal process. We made Silverado. It was a very flashy part. That part had a lot of jeans.

It was set up to win.

And so what you have to do is embrace it, walk right into it, which was a little hard for me because I was prepared to play the laconic Scott Glynn role. Peyton, who Kevin Kline played, because I knew this era, it was already my thing. And so I thought I knew how to do the minimalist here. I got this guy that was raging and climbing like a monkey and picking fights. And I thought I wasn't prepared to play him at first.

Yeah. Were you nervous?

I was because I knew how to do this other thing. This guy was as big as the horizon, so that's how I ended up trying to play him, which was play to the horizon. It's not like anybody else's in the room, right? Right. It's like you're not value for value on shit.

This is your world. Everyone else is passing through it.

That's right. But that moment of the big chill, I wasn't wrong. Silverado happened. But sometimes being on the yellow brick road is as much about getting where you're going.

Listen, I can relate to that greatly, which is the biggest hurdle, is being invited into the fucking room. Cause you're on the outside of the room for so long that. That moment where you go, oh, my God, I got a call time. I'm on my way to a movie set, is very, very special. You go, well, now I'm up to bat. I just had never been up to bat, and I know I can't hit if I don't get called up to bat.

That's correct.

So I agree with you. It's really maybe the most profound.

We're in a real spot as actors because even musicians. Musicians can stand on the corner with a guitar and their case open. They can make a little dough. They can play as an actor. If you're fumbling your lines on some street corner, you're going to jail. Yeah, they're moving your way. So the ability to practice your craft. Granted, you have the theater, but you realize it's limited. And so what you're talking about is, how am I going to step through that door?

You need permission to do the thing you want to do.

Yeah.

Unlike writing, you can sit down.

They can't stop you. So when it did start to happen, when the american flyers turned into no way out, I found that movie I had done, Silverado, Orion. Thought it was a pretty catchy part, asked me to come in, showed me all their movies. I said no. And that was a big word that has followed me.

And you had that from the beginning.

I developed it where I thought, I need my career to be about something. At some point, I just went like, you know what? I'm trying so hard. I need to be able to look back. And so I did have that. And so they had their movies, and I'm sure they all thought they were good. I didn't see a fit for me. And they said the right question right after that. Well, is there anything you want to do? All this back work I had been doing about who's turning down what, what's going on? Constantly reading on my own, I found this movie called finished with engines. It's a naval term for shutting down a ship. You ever see those sayings on the Titanic, full ahead one third?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you look at it on the brass, you can look at it, I think, on sand pebbles, if you pull it all the way back, it says finished with engines. It's the shutting down. Those are big ships. You got to be really sure about shutting it down because you can't get it started right away. And I said, I read the script, I'd do this. And it was at Warner Brothers. It was in turnaround. So they said, okay, we'll do that with you. And it was no way out. They changed the title.

Oh, wow.

But I knew how it read. It matched up with the sensibility that I had. So after that, then the untouchables happened after about five or six movies, and the field of dreams came. And the bull Durham. But then I wanted to direct. I knew where I was headed. I knew what I wanted to do. And I was a terrible student. It was only when film really took hold of me that I invested and understood what it was like to be a good student, because I saw good students in college. I wasn't one.

You went to UC Fullerton. What was your degree in?

Marketing.

And you discover acting in college. Right.

In college last year.

And so prior to the dream of doing that, did you have a fantasy of going into marketing?

I didn't. I was a rat chasing the cheese in a maze. I was very conservative growing up. You go to school, you go to a college, you get a job and you raise a family.

Dust bowl.

Dust bowl people. Yes.

Grew up in Compton.

Here?

Yes.

Oh, wow.

First seven years, and then moved to little Santa Paula, and then up between Santa Paula and Ohio, a little one street. And there was a two room schoolhouse up to the 6th grade. So you're in with a lot of kids. And I thought to myself, it was a little harder in confidence, this is all right. A bunch of kids I can deal with a 6th grader, come on.

But you moved a ton. I moved a ton, too, as a kid. And I think it either makes you or breaks you. Cause, man, reintroducing yourself constantly, it almost broke me.

I found I lost confidence in 11th, 12th. I was also an undersized kid. I'm looking at my boys right now. One just turned 17, but he's six'two. Going on six'three. And I was five'two. My middle son is 15. He's six. I didn't have that thing. So when you took the moving, you took being undersized, you took girls wanting to look at your license. And after the fourth one said five'two. Wow, you're cute. And I thought, I've never shown that license to anybody.

Yes, and you suck at school.

Yeah. And I was not good at school. I could play sports, and that gave me one leg up. At least she had a built in set of friends. A little bit.

And you're going from pretty radically different cultures. Compton to Visalia. Last two years of high school is Orange county.

I'm really proud of you for digging in. Honestly, you're starting to say some things I forgot.

You're worthy of it.

Well, thank you. And the first girl that kind of liked me, that I dated, I didn't have dates in high school. I married her.

Wow.

Okay, this may be too revealing, but I'll go first. So elementary school, I love girls. I'm in love with girls from the day I'm born. None of them like me. I get to junior high. My older brother gives me a really cool punk rock haircut. I get a skateboard. All of a sudden, girls like me. And there has never, ever, ever been a better drug than that for me.

Well, I think it does make the world go around. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I know it is.

And I wanted this. It wasn't that I didn't like her. It was just like, if I walk across there, ask her to dance, she is gonna say no. I wasn't a self fulfilling prophecy. It just. I wasn't going to be kind of.

An ironic twist with the career you had and how big and handsome you turned out to be.

It wasn't gonna happen. And I was lost. I got this little hunting dog up in Visalia, and all I did was I just got that dog. I would go and not come home.

Did you live in fantasy world a lot?

I daydreamed, which was a little bit hard on my dad. I was always a worker. I worked since I was little. But he confused my daydreaming with me not knowing how to work. And I really knew how to work. You know, my dad finally came to me, said, your mom and I have been talking. We were wondering, did we help you in college? I said, no. He said, you paid for it. I said, I did. I worked on commercial fishing boats. I really liked people, but I wasn't afraid to go someplace myself.

Well, but can I say, you had already experienced exclusion. It was terrible. And then you lived through it. And I think that's a weird gift. You can stomach it. You can go be odd man out for the rest of your life if you need to be. You've done it.

I can exist where I'm at. It's like the movies. There's a pattern in my life. I'm a bit of a plotter. It took me a while in high school. I didn't understand women. I didn't understand our own industry. It took me a while to get everything I have. It comes late to me. I am a late bloomer in all of it.

Like your growth spurt?

Yeah. Quite honestly, even as I exist in the industry today, people under the illusion that I can do whatever I want. The truth is, I do whatever I want, but I can't do whatever I want. In a sense that some of these movies they have not wanted to do have not been popular in their mind. The dances, the field of dreams, and the bull durhams were movies that just had to take them around, push them up. In some instances is use your own money. Even horizon is this long journey. No one was going to make this, but I wanted to go fishing. What's the harm in that? Who am I hurting? And I'm not Ahab, I know what obsession is. Obsession is willingness to take other people down to fulfill your dream. But for me, what I maybe sacrifice is the wealth that I built up. I might lose it. Ooh.

Oh.

It doesn't scare you?

It never has.

Wow.

I have a sense of responsibility because I have children. There's a core that I'm not going to let go. But this pile has meant a lot to me. I'm not gonna let that inform my decisions.

Well, you're probably rightly going. Okay, on the deathbed, do I wanna stare at the pile as I go, or do I wanna go? Oh, yeah. And I got that across the finish line.

Even the idea of I got that across the finish line. I realized at the end of the day, we're still gonna have this big question. What was our life about? What's on my grave marker? I hope it says, and I made movies too.

Yeah, right.

That's great.

So maybe that's a trick. I mean, we don't know what this is about. We know that it has to do with love. Because that is a thing you can go to bed with and wake up with. And I have the love of my children. I have a love of a profession that I finally understand. I don't have to be considered the number one person, but I am in that room. I decide what I'm going to do. It just isn't easy, and it doesn't unfold for me. I have to go. Okay? This is what it is. Nobody wants to go. I'm going to go.

Yeah. When you get to at 32, when you have this crazy string, the untouchables, all these things, and now you are officially a leading man. You are going to make decisions. You're driving the boat. You know, you're globally famous at that point. Is that an easy transition for you or is that hard? Did that take a minute?

That's an easy transition because I wasn't concerned with it. Just once I realized what it was. Just the same way I realized that when I was on the freeway at the big chill, I said, this is happening for me. This is fucking happening.

Yeah, yeah. Here we go, baby.

Everybody said, you're not in the movie. You're not like, John Lovitz was talking to me like that. Christ, it didn't happen for you. I love this guy. Where is this guy?

Oh, I just saw him at the Hollywood bully. Came out during billboard. No way.

We need this guy. But anyway, it's not how I define things. So when that happened, I didn't have that moment with my head out doing cocaine on the hood of a car. I was like, down about what I. I should have followed you around. There's a lot of people that say, I haven't lived my life for a drew.

Driven us straight into a ditch.

I promise you would have said, kev, with me, we can be on, on the rope.

Your nose looks dry. Let's get something in it.

Here's the thing I had that actually happened. Believe it or not, when I was a stage manager, Raleigh, it was called producer studio because of roofs leak. Only thing we got there were commercials and low budget movies that didn't have enough money and then didn't even pay the studio. I mean, it's like we were constantly chasing. Eventually, another group came in, Raleigh studios, and they started to pour money back into the studio, but we were still just doing commercials. And ultimately, it was the wave of MTV.

Oh, yeah.

And all of those things started being played there. I saw all the action stuff, but still no movies. And I was dying to see a movie. And finally we got to a point where there was studio space and Evita was coming over. Faye Dunaway played Evita, the television for Marge and Chomsky. I was thinking, I'm gonna see some acting. And I didn't really tell a lot of people I was an actor. Cause who wants to work next to a pining actor?

Yeah, yeah, it's rough.

So en masse, they came over and started rewiring our stages. And the electricians came over like rock stars. They were prepping it strong, like you, you know, whole thing.

Oh.

And they were there for three weeks just stringing cable. And then sets were being built, and they took all seven stages. But I was a non union lot. So whenever they needed something, I got it from, whether it was grip, whether electrician or anything, they're always saying thank for me. And at one point, they would always take me back into the grip room and say, here. And they put out a little line of code. Sure, sure. You know, and to say, like, we thank you for all the shit you're doing for us. So I. What? So I do that, right?

You don't want to be rude? No.

And nothing. And I do it a second time, and I do it a third time. And finally I said to them, I said, hey, look how much? And he says, that's about $20 right there. And I said, can I say something to you? I said, yeah, fuck, of course, man. What? And I said, look, I'm trying to buy my first house. And I said, if you think what I'm doing is cool, I could use dollar 20.

Yeah, I'll take the 20.

I could take a 20. And I was out of the club immediately.

Sure, sure.

So I said, you know, I'm an actor. They go, well, we'll come swim in your pool someday. And I remember these guys very clearly. And I was suddenly out of the club. I had done them many. They weren't favors in my mind, it was just how I worked. And so I saw myself excluded because I didn't want to do this. I was kind of lucky for me that I didn't like coke.

Yeah.

Oh, truly, there was nothing there for me. But because I said, I'm trying to build something from my wife who's wondering what in the world I'm doing.

You're not pursuing marketing.

You're working $3.25 an hour, and you're happy. I said, I was happy, but I don't know how we got on that jag, but I think there's people out there going, I'm kind of glad he did. Coke.

Yeah. It makes you much more human. And they know I've done kilos of it. So at 32, though, when you have all this opportunity, was there somebody's career at that point? Like, you have a very apocryphal, fun story on the way home from your honeymoon. At 22 years old, you meet Richard Burton on an airplane. That's wild. At 32, when the sky's kind of the limit and you have opportunity. Was there someone's career at that moment that you thought, oh, I wouldn't mind having that career?

No. I had this idea that I knew inherently, no matter how fast I was going, there was going to be a moment where somebody else is going to be the number one actor or something.

You did know that.

I knew that easily. When I actually knew the way I was gonna run my career, that was probably going to happen because I was frustrating people by not making the second bodyguard, not making the second anything. And I want to just say, I'm not an elitist. I would have done it had I thought that the next script that was written was really good. And they go, well, no, let's just make it. I said, no, let's see the script first. Let me see if it is as good as the first one, and then I'll make it. But no one wants to do that. They just want to green light that second one as fast as you can go. So what I felt was, I just want to be in that room where I do what I want to do. I can see who's having a nice run. That's okay by me. It's just, can I do what I want to do? Because I feel like I have a relationship with the audience, and I was going to bring them a brand of movie that was maybe not in the same genre. It was moving around. That was another little problem for me, that no one knew what to expect on the next one.

It wasn't in a vein that they could see if you could just make this movie again or one like it again. We know how to market that in a way.

You're a boxer who you've got a great right cross, and they're like, keep throwing that right.

And Hollywood inherently knows that they want something new, but they're afraid that it's not going to make the money that something old does. And we've weaned an audience off that. We've created the conventional wisdom that they got to be this long, they got to be this, they got to be that, that.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. Dances with Wolves. That's your first time directing?

I wanted to direct the movie in front of it. I wanted to direct revenge. I had actually helped write a 106 page script, so not everything I was going to do had the length that people think that I just. When I met Ray Stark, I don't know if you remember who Ray Stark was. He's a legendary tough guy. Done a lot of movies with John Hughes.

Director.

No, a producer and a mean guy. And John Huston was his partner. Helped him on some of these movies. And he didn't listen to Ray very much. But I had to get past John Huston. John Huston?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he thought I was too young to direct.

Oh, really?

Yeah. He says, I think the boy's too young. That beautiful voice of his. And I thought, well, fuck you, John. I'm gonna grow up and not hire your son, Danny Houston, because you were mean to me.

There's worse guys that get told no by.

I've gotten to work twice with Dan. It was just so great. But John just felt that I was a little young, so I acted in that. And then the very next movie I've directed dancers with Wolves.

Okay, now I want to ask if it's a blessing or a curse to have the first thing you direct get nominated for twelve Academy Awards. You win two, it makes a fucking fortune. In the same way that pulp fiction comes out. And it's a little bit like, I'm a little scared for this guy. How do we follow this up? Did you feel any of that? Or did you just enjoy the fruits of it?

I just enjoyed it.

But what a fucking. Even in your wildest expectations.

But I'm trying to be square with you. Yeah, because you've been square with me. You know, we're talking about drugs and stuff. What it was is the validation of the movie encouraged me to do better, not rest.

Yeah, but tall order.

I guess it has been, but I still think the play is the thing. Yeah, I was looking for a big movie and I'm trying to do revenge. And I get into this giant fight with them because they keep postponing, keep postponing. And I read this little movie and I finally said to Ray, I said, look, if you don't finally do this movie, you know, it kind of made it, so I can't direct it. Now you're fucking around now with a month into it and there's movies coming by me. And I wanted to then when I read this little movie, and if you don't get this shit together in the next week I said, I'm going to do this movie. The week came and went. And if he didn't believe that I was what? I said, I said, guess what? Hey, Ray, I'm doing this movie. And it was Field of dreams, the movie in the corn. I thought it was special. That's just what I felt. And we went to war over it. And everybody kind of moved away from me, even agents. Cause Ray was kind of a volcanic, difficult personality that would try to ruin careers.

And so now I'm like the mongoose in this Cobra bullshit.

Ricky Tikki town.

I get on the phone with him, he goes, you know, I'm gonna sue you. And I said, that's the first words out of your mouth, isn't it? And he said, what? And I said, I heard you were a smart guy. And then I just stayed silent. And he was like, what? I said, I heard you're a smart guy. What does that mean? I said, that means you can figure this out. You come to me four days after you finish this fucking movie in the corn. Yeah, that's how it went down.

Like this business we're in is plagued by gatekeepers and intermediaries. And things keep escalating because no one's actually talking directly to one another. And every time you do pick up the phone and call the person directly, shit gets done in like five minutes.

It can and sometimes it can't, but let's find out if it can. I think that's what you're saying. So dances, I knew that that was a moment and I just had to enjoy the moments that would come after that. And I would make sure that the movie that I would pick suspended sustained me. You can't always tell what a massive movie's gonna be. But I can tell what a good movie is.

Yeah. Did you have playback back then?

Not really, no. I had it on dances though. I needed it.

So I've directed a couple things I starred in as well and playback's essential if you're in it.

It's totally essential, yeah.

And I was just curious if back then it was readily available.

I use playback with my actors. I bring them all in that tent. I don't treat that place sacredly. I don't even. Cause I love everything about a movie. You wanna watch a great take? Watch this. I'll even put music on my little stair to play music against it. But this is where I work. But I don't make it like this is sacred.

Well, there's a lot of things you can't explain when you're directing, you have to bring the actor over and go, this is why it looks weird when.

You'Re see what you did? It's a tool. Somebody said, well, it slows things down. Well, I think it speeds things up.

How old were you then? Dances?

I think I was 34 when I made it and then edit it, I became 35.

At the moment, you probably felt old, but now looking back, do you not recognize, like, I was pretty fucking young to take on that movie.

There was a lot about it that was funny. I just knew that the movie was what I wanted to make.

You were on a mission in the.

Sense that, let's just follow this script. I'm pretty anal about script. I'm not somebody that goes out there and wings it. I will leave what I call a window of opportunity, which is I go out there, stick with the script. It's the Bible. It's going to work. I know it works. But if somehow there's some opportunity that I sense, I will step through that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Don't you find? Now, I've only directed things I've written. And I would never want to direct something I hadn't written. Because I think when you believe in something from the beginning, you understand it from the beginning. I think that ends up being in infectious to people around you. Because ultimately, as the director, you're really getting everyone to buy into the same fantasy that you have created. And I think you have to infect people with it.

I can see where you're coming from. I come from the place that I could direct every movie that I said yes to. But where the problems exist is when a director comes on who is directing it and starts to go, well, I never really liked that scene. Or I didn't like the way I shot that scene.

Well, isn't that the actual origin of dances, which was there was a director and he wanted to cut some scenes.

I went to three directors, pretty good directors, and each one of them had a difficulty with some of the issues. Whether subtitles should be there, whether maybe we should just start with them out at the fort. Screw the civil war thing. Studio is going to cut out that 1st 15 minutes anyway. Let's start with him there. Don't meet the guy at the fort. The crazy guy who pisses his pants. Let's just get you out to the fort. Well, I thought, okay, I hear that, but no, it's the subtitles. I get that, but no. And all it did was I just looked at myself and I said, I need to direct this.

I have one movie to ask you about, and this is self indulgent, but I happen to be kind of obsessed with her because I've watched two documentaries about her, Whitney Houston. And I'm curious on that movie if that was a special experience. Was she nervous?

She's really smart. That was a movie I probably should have directed. I just thought somebody could do a better job. But he was uncomfortable with her. She was my choice. So I was the actor. I produced it. I picked her.

So you probably have the same fascination I have with her.

Listen, the first girl I thought was pretty was Diana Ross. I saw her on Ed Sullivan show, and I thought, fuck, yes.

Let's go.

That's pretty. And I'm like, ten years old. I know what pretty is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I loved her. So it's not like this giant mystery. So I knew that she should be the one. So in producing it, I produced Whitney in the movie, meaning I put her there. I didn't let the director. Well, I'm directing. We've all decided places. I said, no, she's in the movie. You can direct this movie to Lawrence Kasdan script. Just try to stick with it. There was a flaw in that script, and even Larry talked about it. I talked about it, and about three weeks before the movie started, remember, it's 17 years old. It's the first script that he'd ever sold. So it'd been around for 17 years.

Really?

Yes.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Bodyguard's the first script that Lawrence Kennedy. Really?

Right. And Sidney Pollock was going to make it. Somehow it fell through the cracks. He goes on to write Raiders of the Lost Ark, empire strikes back, body heat, Silverado. But that was the first one. So I kind of asked him about it. He goes, yeah, I did this movie. And the way he talks is always so distinct. And I said, well, I want to read it. And so I read it, and I thought, I'm going to make this Larry. I wanted him to direct it, but I think his mind was somewhere else. And I didn't think I should. I just thought, somebody can do it better than me. But I really knew who I wanted. There was a moment where she trusted me. And as I looked at her, and I could see the director was afraid of her, and he was shooting her late in the day when he just didn't want to get to her, would rather shoot her walking than talking.

He was nervous. He couldn't get out of her.

I started to guide her, and I wasn't trying to usurp my director. But I had made a promise to her not to fucking him.

Yeah, for sure.

And to the movie.

And as a scene partner.

That's right.

You want to lift?

And then editorially, we had a real problem. That movie was not tested. I was testing the sixties.

No way.

And I had promised Whitney that she'd be good in it. So now we're sitting in Warner bros. And have you ever been in that round room at Warner Brothers where they talk to you, yo, yo, yo. So I'm in that room with Terry Simmel and Bob Daley, and the director's there. And this goes, well, I guess it's as good as the movie's gonna get. Says out of 69. I thought, no. And everybody was like, what? And I said, we need to put about 15 minutes back in this movie, Kevin. I'm like, hardly believe this is a problem. This movie's getting shorter and you want to make it longer. And I said, yeah, I thought, I'd like to put 15 minutes back in this movie. I said, because I'm going to take out about. I can remember this to this day. I'm going to take out 28 minutes. Well, how are you going to do that? I said, about 15 seconds at a time, I imagine, because we're not going to lose any scenes. We're going to put back in scenes. He says, well, I don't think you'll be able to do that. I said, watch me.

So I went home and I remember I sat in my bed for two days on the weekend looking at the.

Numbers, just writing down time code.

Yeah, cut this, cut that, start here, cut this, cut that. And came out to 28 minutes.

No way.

No way. That's freaky.

It did. And we barely got out of Dodge. And that movie went up, tested a lot higher. I'd made a promise to Clive Davis that Whitney would be good. I made a promise to her.

Clive was managing her.

Yes. And we got it. Larry actually went in with me, but I worked this thing, and I think we barely got out of. But we had this movie that worked. And that was my promise to her. She's always gonna love me in the song. I was always gonna keep my promise to her.

A, did you sense there was a ton of pain there? And b, did it break your heart?

No, but I eulogized her and I didn't want to. When she passed away, there was a steady drumbeat to hear. You know, she was such a big personality that everybody was going on the air talking. That was not my first instinct. Even Arnold was after about five or six days ago. Kevin, you need to something.

You're seeing people capitalize on it.

That's right.

Which is gross. And yet you are close enough that it would seem crazy. You didn't. So you're in a very weird state.

Arnold tried to explain that to me, and then the BET award said, well, would you come and give her an award at least and talk? And I said to Arnold, well, how long is that? And he says, well, it'll be two minutes. I said, I can't do it now. There was this, like, where is he? But about two days later, I get this call, and it was Dionne Warwick. And she was putting together the memorial, and she calls me and she said, kevin, I'm putting this thing. I said, yes. The exact thing I didn't want to do. I just said yes. I could feel the weight on her now. It shifted to me, what am I saying about this little girl? And went back to that church in Newark, and it was filled. It was electric. There was two bands playing. The church was alive. It was like, boom. And it was a bunch of people working on this speech. I talked to a friend of mine, army, and we'd both written down notes about it, and I tried to compile everything I wanted to do and finally crafted this speech. Now I'm in there, and I'm thinking, I really stuck out.

Sure, sure.

And I'm sitting in this row, and somebody said, cNN's here. I go, cnn's here. And they go, yeah, they wouldn't mind if your remarks were kept shorter because they're going to have commercials. And I said, they can get over that. They can play the commercial while I'm talking. I don't care. But I've come here when I didn't want, you know, I didn't want to do two minutes, and I crafted this speech I was writing on the plane. I was writing for a week. And I look back and I see Oprah and Diane Sawyer. And I swear to God, I must have been like 13 years old. I said, would you do my speech for me? I didn't feel like I was the right guy to go up there, but I did. And there were some people that really wanted to speak, and they're kind of staring daggers at me. What was I going to say? And I started, and about 17 minutes later, I was done.

Wow. And you said everything that I felt.

I needed to say.

I watched those docs, and I think, a, the talent is so once in a generation, but the fucking work ethic when she was juggling the full blown addiction and still doing the shows. She was a force of nature. I can't help but be enamored by the whole thing.

It was a moment where I knew when Whitney came, I said, look, you can't have an entourage, but I'm gonna take care of you. If there's a person important to you turned out to be Robin Crawford, I said, let's have Robin. But I said, I don't have one. You're not gonna have one. And that's how we started. And I knew that it would never be the same for her when she left me, and I purposely wasn't a pen pal to her. But there was a couple moments where somebody said to me, would you write her, please? I did.

You must have made her feel really safe. That's what the entourage is all about. I mean, there's a lot of fear.

And I don't know what it was, but we had a moment, and I realized that the world had a higher idea of who we were, so I basically embraced it. I was her imaginary bodyguard.

Yeah. It's so sweet. It works on all these levels, and I think there was probably real things that were happening that really helped in what we ended up seeing. You were her bodyguard. I mean, it's not even psychologically. Okay, quickly, listen. I'm gonna say this as someone who's directed something that over performed, and I've directed something that's underperformed, and it's a very unique experience to go from mega hit behind your wildest dreams to do the post man, and it didn't do as well financially as I imagine you hoped, and then to do open range again and then be right back in the swing of things, where it over performs, and it's critically acclaimed. When you're evaluating that phase, I can already tell from every story you've told me you're very big on intuition, and it doesn't seem like you're shaken easily with your conviction. But are you having a little head scratchery moment, like, well, hold on. I have the same conviction about this thing, and it didn't connect. What the fuck happen? What did I miss?

I didn't miss anything. It just didn't catch on. But the hostility that kind of came behind it, people that came out to throw an extra dirt clod.

Yeah. Well, unfortunately, we tell stories, and you're the victim of stories, which is you're at the very top of the mountain, and there's only one chapter left in the story. It's not that they build a higher mountain next to you and you climb it.

Oh, you're right.

It's unavoidable.

So I saw that. But the good thing about it for me is if someone watches the movie again, they're gonna see what I wanted to do in the postman.

Yeah, you executed what you hope to do. Exactly, which is the thing you have to prioritize the most. But also, sometimes you go like, well, I'm confused. Why? Sometimes my conviction is widely appealing, and sometimes it's narrowly. I don't know why. Cause I'm just following the scut. That was the same on that thing.

That's right.

And that's a little confusing. Okay, last question before we get to horizon, which is this sounds like a silly question now, in 2021, because all the great stuff is happening on tv. But was it a difficult decision in 2012 to do Hatfields and McCoy?

No, but it was a trap. I remember my agent called me, said, hey, look, these people have this thing, Hatfield McCoys. They know that you like this era, and they were just wondering if their script was any good. That was the pitch.

Oh, that's a good trick. They just want your opinion. Yes, because they value it so much.

So two things happen. One that'll have a little bit of meaning to our things because we'll give your show a little poetry, a little kind of like circle back moment. I said, it is good. It reminds me of something I have. I have this western. I think it's really good. And this writing, I think, matches that in a certain way. Would you direct it? You know, like, that was the next question. Like, got my hands on it now.

Yeah, yeah.

What?

I said I'd read it. They got this hand on me, trying to pull me in the door. I can't. I mean, it was like going fast. And I said, well, this person could probably direct it. And they go, would you act in it? And I said, what just happened? And I said, look, I will, but when you ask me that, I'm going to tell you something. I'm not shy about saying if I don't like something, if I think something's perfect. And I've had about ten or twelve scripts where we never changed the line. That's maybe nine more than most people.

Totally.

So never did change silverado, never did change untouchables, never did change fandango or no way out. Didn't change bull Durham, didn't change tin cup. They were these scripts that had been written and rewritten, and I stick to them. This is written really well. I believe in that. So I go, I'm not trying to manipulate something, but I think that the character needs about five more scenes. They go, you know, we'll have somebody write it. I said, you could spend too much writing this. And all sudden, I don't like anything. You don't have that time. I said, do you want me to sit down with your writer? And I'll do. So. They had trapped me pretty good.

So anyway, yeah, now I know how to get you in a movie, by the way.

So four days later, I wrote the scenes, and I said, do you like them? And they said, yes. What else are they gonna say?

Yeah, it's hard to trust that.

So now I meet with Nancy Dubuque. She says, do you want to do this? And I said, I can do this, but do you like every scene in these scripts? And she said, yes. I said, so do I, but this isn't two nights. And she said, well, that's our model. And I said, yeah, but this is four nights, meaning four night shoots, four nights of viewing. It had so much content.

I got you.

I did my own trapping. What don't you like? Do you like my scenes? Yeah. I said, well, it's easily four nights of thing. Well, we can't do that. I said, I can't either. So that word no really helped me there. We ultimately, like I said to Ray, I heard you're smart. Let's figure this out. Finally, the compromise is, I said, why don't we show this over three nights or four nights with no commercials? And then you can. You can cut it up however you want after that. But at least the audience will see this thing in its fullness. And that's ultimately what happened. I always respect Nancy because she followed through, because she could have bailed on me and said, you know, I tried really hard, but the network's finally crushed me. And then they've edit this movie and it never turns out to be what it turns out to be.

And again, this is one of these bolts of lightning. It sets records, but it's the movie.

I know what a good movie is. I'm not sure what a hit's going to be. I could tell it was good. But one funny thing that happened, and it's not so funny, but you would think that I'd have enough experience. So this movie, they actually had an art director going, they were so far down the line, it would all happen fast. And then they told me it was in Romania.

Oh, fuck.

Wow. Talk about a track.

And I had agreed to do a movie that I thought was going to be in Kentucky or Caroline. And of course it was. How could you miss that one? How could you miss that fastball? And I go, I just did. So I really major fuck up. For me to be gone for three months and Romania, like, is not the first question you ask. What are you doing? And I go, well, maybe Michael Caine does, but not me.

But you just dealt with it.

I dealt with it.

It was such an enormous hit.

It went beyond and it went beyond. Not because of me. All I did was protect it. It went beyond because it was what it was supposed to be.

Yeah, but still, 14 million viewers on cable just doesn't happen. So I think you're a little piece of that.

I accept I was a piece of it. I accept that I protected it.

People love watching you. Sorry. That's how it works. That's what we've learned.

It was a good story, though. I can fit in a good story. I can't be charming for 3 hours. Try it. Your movie will fail.

You just did it.

That movie will fail.

Yeah. Yeah. So does that make Yellowstone a little easier?

I see why you occupy that chair. I kind of like that you just did it.

Does that make Yellowstone easier to say yes to? With the great success of Hatfields, Yellowstone.

Was just a really great script. Boy, here comes this boring song from me. It was just a great script.

Again. It's so fucking enormous. Are you shocked by that?

I thought it was kind of good.

Yeah, I watched the shit out of it, right?

It hadn't been made. And all of a sudden they said, would you go over and sell this to the buyers in Europe, you know? Cause I don't want to make a western about ranching. So I'm on a plane. There's nobody on the plane with me. I land there about seven in the morning. I'm whisked to a theater. Now it's 930. And it's filled with like 300 buyers from different countries. I said, look, I think it's kind of pretty good. Are you going to be in all? I looked over the guy that brought me and he's wanting me to say, yes, you'll be in seven. You know, be in whatever. And I said, no, I've agreed to do three. And I said, but I think this is good enough that it can carry on. I'm doing it. And I was the only one there. It hadn't been made. And they liked how that discussion went. And they go, there's this little thing called the advertisement. Advertisers down in con, they're all there, you know, all the different restaurants, builders emporium and anybody that sponsor movies. So I have the same conversation with them. You're going to be in this thing.

And so sold this one season for them and I had finally agreed to do three. I thought it was going to just be one long one. I'm into long. But then it turned out it was going to be a series. And they first said to me, you want to be in seven? I said, no, it ain't happening. Well, five. It ain't happening. I didn't want to bait and switch. I said I would do it. So I said, I'll give you three.

Three seasons.

And then I ended up making five.

I'm not going to make you trudge through that.

No, I don't have to. What happens is I just believed in the world. I knew it was a soap opera. I knew we should all be in jail. We've all killed people there. And so you throw logic out the window, right? A little bit. But he has a great ear and he just wrote that stuff really authentically. And it was good fun. And he wrote my part especially well in Kelly's part. So listen, I had a lot of fun with it.

It's a great example of plot. The plot is fucking moving in that show at like a breakneck pace.

It was really good. I recognized that. So I did it the best I could possibly do it.

That does set us up. Okay. So as we look deeper into horizon, obviously you've had a lot of success in the sports world, but definitely what you seem to have this crazy connection with is the western. And I know as a kid you watch a movie that's really impactful. But I'm more curious, what is it about the west that captures your imagination just geographically? What does it symbolize? And then also historically, what is so endlessly interesting to you about it? You have a place in Montana, Colorado.

I think there's something about how big the country was and all the possibilities that go with something big and untouched. That was a unique thing. I could feel it as a child. And to live by your wits and to be resourceful, you know, you look at the cowboy and the only possessions he has or on his back and on his horse, and I thought to myself, yeah, that's me going to Canada, getting on a fishing boat. I have to look to myself. But the west was like the garden of Eden. It was untouched. Compare Europe with the buildings thousands of years old already and civilization, the Middle east, pyramids and great, great cities. But what happens is westerns for the most part, aren't very good in my mind. For as much as I love them, I go long and hard trying to find one that challenges me. And I see behavior in both good and bad guys that identify with and realize that in real life, there was no law out there. The promise was you could go, and it was. How tough were you to be able to hold onto it?

There's a great scene where the reality of that hits you. You have gotten yourself ensnared in someone else's story by accident, and you reluctantly have to shoot a guy, and you're in this tiny little mining ish town.

I love that you single that out because people think the west is simple. It's way harder than la or con. It's like if you have a problem, you can go to the store. And if that store doesn't have any food, you can go to another store. And if you got a real problem, you can get a lawyer, you can get the police. When you were out there, there was nothing there. You can't emphasize enough how difficult that was. It wasn't simple at all. How do I arbitrate the life of myself, my family, who is across from me, what do they want? And you're talking about a guy who just killed somebody and then was humiliated by his brother. He is just unhinged.

Yeah, he's trying desperately to claw some masculine masculinity.

And to me, and he has a history of probably dominating people, and he just picks wrong. And I love the idea that you don't always know who you're dealing with.

Oh, don't we love that?

But is that from being five two?

It's from me thinking when I know I'm on solid ground. I know this happened a million times. Not this time in this movie, but this happened in some form. We have bullies bullying now in our schools. What you had out there were bullies with guns and nothing to stop them. There are words that have absolutely no meaning in our culture. And back then, they were absolutely finite. Like the word stranger. When you saw a stranger in the west, it was like the boogeyman. I don't know anything about you. I don't know if you want my water. I don't know if you want my wife. I don't know if you want my property, my horse. I don't know anything about you. Because you could reinvent yourself.

Oh, my God. Yes. Okay, so really quick, you shoot this guy. And the folks in town have heard a gunshot. They come upon the scene, one guy's dead. We don't know. You're gonna presumably tell them, yeah, he drew a gun on me, and I had to defend myself, and that's kind of where it ends. And people have to decide in town how they're gonna take that. You shoot this guy, but the problem has just begun. You have to immediately reload. Cause we don't know what the reaction of all these other strangers is gonna be. Did they know this guy? Are they gonna side with him? Do they think you're the maniac? Sky's the limit at all.

It is. I get the nod from this guy. I just loaned him some money, and all of a sudden he goes, the only favor I can give you is a head start because you're on your own. That's part of this four part series is these people are relentless. These people will not stop chasing him.

Yeah, they're crazy. You have killed a member of a criminal family who's already on the warpath because the patriarch got shot by this woman. I also love how many questions, questions. You leave, I'm like, I don't know why she shoots this guy at the beginning. I'm gonna have to fill in the blanks.

That's all.

Yeah. I'm gonna have to assume the worst about this gentleman.

Would you want a five hour fucking movie?

I know it was 350 at one point.

That was my.

It was 350. And you knew for sure you couldn't get five minutes out of it.

At first I couldn't. And finally I got it down to, it's so funny, I love you. I couldn't. Then pretty soon, there it went. But, yeah, the west is terribly cold, complicated. There is no one to arbitrate your problems. And when you create the correct architecture of dilemma, dilemma, by definition, is you don't know what you're going to do. So if you create dilemma in an audience going, I don't know what he should do. If I'm sad, the drama is, is he going to cry? And if you want to kiss her, but you don't kiss, when I want to hit you so bad, there's drama. Is he going to hit him? It exists. And not doing something. Yes, drama exists in that moment for me to try to continue to find those moments of architecture and create that, and it can exist. And if you're lazy, you don't find it. You have to work hard to find it. You know, Luke Wilson's really good in this part.

Yeah, he is. I'm really excited. I did a movie with him, idiocracy. And I fucking adored him.

He's worked really hard and he really.

Holds it big time.

And the word support. People on that wagon, they do not know each other, right. It's a bunch of strangers is unqualified. He just was 6ft. They voted him the captain. Now he's starting to pay a price for it.

It's beautifully shot. I think part of the west, when I ask you about the geography right away, we start in horizon and you have these plateaus behind everybody and, you know, those things are miles wide. If you like fantasy, and I love fantasy. That to me is the weird magic of the west in westerns is like, my God, it's big and it's still there. Yeah. There's no set dressing for you.

It's still there. That's the one thing that we can keep in mind. That's probably little bit to do with Yellowstone. Those mountains are still there. There's still work being done on horseback. Those rivers have not stopped flowing. So if we put drama in front of those, you do have an opportunity to create something that people revisit. I don't know what the other offerings are in the quote unquote marketplace, but I think when you see horizon, this is about space. Now it's up to me to not let it become obvious, to find a level of surprise and do that in language. Because language is what drives a western to me. Not the gunfight.

But there's also a unique architecture to westerns. I was thinking about it a lot while watching it and the westerns have a lot more things unsaid and there's a lot of visual storytelling.

But Horizon is heavily written. Danny talks about manifest destiny. That script, between me and that guy isn't. You better leave me alone.

No, it's a lovely danielle seven minute scene. Yes. And again, back to your dilemma.

But you are talking about the kind of westerns that you've seen that bother you and why that would be hard on you. Because we aren't just about. Yep and nope. There is should be dialog. It was a victorian age and that's why I lean heavily on dialog because I believe it has its place in horizon. Those big, long scenes. That little boy in the trading thing, is he going to kill that man? That's a long scene.

Well, that was the other thing I wanted to bring up that I loved about it is people. People setting out with good intention. I just like the multidimensionality of everyone. So there's this raid on this settlement. A bunch of people are killed and murdered. Then there's kind of a vigilante group that's going to go out and seek retribution. But also there's some bounty related. So it's already a little.

Well, it starts to turn into commerce. They said, does it really matter to you who the fuck you're going to kill?

Yeah. Will anyone be able to tell what scalp is? What scalp?

That's right.

And that's the reality of these situations.

And who says it to? It doesn't matter. The little boy says, no, it doesn't.

That's the other thing that gives it such stakes is there's little people involved. And you remember, oh, yeah, there were kids along for this ride. These are almost impossible challenges for adults to make their way from Kansas, all the way out here.

And I've always hated movies where the kids were stupid. In an adult world.

Yeah, I felt pretty savvy at that age.

I did too.

Yeah. I'm like, I would have lived. Well, I did live. I lived through some shit.

Yeah. Yeah. As an adult, it sounds like you navigated some heavy shit too.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

So how did you come out being so evolved and fun?

Well, I quit drinking at 29, so I had a good decade of. Who helped you go to a total addiction? Aa.

But who helped you go to aa?

Well, I had a father who had got sober when I was 15, so I had seen someone go from a full blown addict at the height of the crack epidemic. I watched an uncle go all the way and then both of them came out the other side from this thing. So I at least always knew where I would have to go.

You like, went to a meeting with your dad?

Oh, yeah, I went to.

When you were young?

I lived with my dad for a couple years in high school and yeah, I would go to meetings with him, so I had a total awareness of it. I certainly did not want to join that club. No one's striving to join that club. So right before I turned 30, I got sober and haven't drank since. But I've done all the shit. It was a busy decade. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to talk about, Horizon, is just. This has not been done to my knowledge. I'm not a film historian, but no one's attempted to make four feature length films as a series and release them theatrically. So I'm reading interviews with you. You're in the middle of promoting the movie. You own the movie. If you want to bring people to Cannes, that's on you. There's so much stuff on your plate. You've got a ten acre parcel. You've put in the clutches for this. At any point during this, did you think, my God, I made my life really complicated again?

Yeah, I did. And what I can't do is let go of the rope. I can't let my obsession with doing this take people down. So I have to just suck it up. When I start to feel sorry for myself or if I can't get something solved, I have to dig deeper and I have to risk some of these things in my life. Promises are big things. My promise to Whitney, it's a big thing. My promise to Hatfield and McCoy is when I find out it's fucking Romania, I still have to follow through. And that came from watching movies. Because for as phony as movies are, we realize there's behavior in there that we need to emulate in our life. We wish we were that.

Well, we're telling the story of our lives, and some of us want to be that person we saw.

We need to be that person. Somebody asked me about big moments in cinema. I said, you know, one of the most important moments for me was in giant. I don't know if you know the movie.

Yeah, yeah.

Rock Hudson, so handsome. Elizabeth Taylor, so beautiful. Comes from the east coast and ends up in the middle of fucking Texas where there's diners or whatever it is. And she's like, aristocat or aristocrat. She's aristocat, but she's like, this is it. But she's in love with him. And he's a big Texas deal. Money and the whole thing. And his son marries a mexican woman and he reveals what a bigot he is and his wife is mad at him. You do the architecture of this movie saga. It's 3 hours long, my favorite kind of shit. So you wonder how I got formed. Anyway, you get to the end of this movie, he's still a big deal, but he's not the king of the hill anymore. He's got gray hair. So does Elizabeth Taylor. And they find themselves in a diner where nobody knows him, really. And the guy's a korean vet and he won't feed them. Have you seen this movie? He's confused and he says, what? And the guy goes off feeding it. Your daughter in law, who's mexican, and your little mexican papa, you know, I fought in Korea. I can do whatever I want.

And he's been a bigot his whole life, Rock. But now he's seen it firsthand, the ugliness of it. And he sees that his daughter in law who he really hasn't noticed, start to cry. And he gets into a fistfight with this guy. And they play the yellow rose of Texas. Da da da da da da da. Kinda corny, but they fight. And the unthinkable happens. Rock Hudson is defeated. They're cutting back to the daughter in law, wishing they never went in this diner. Cause now her father in law is fighting. She's crying, the baby's crying. Liz Taylor is watching Rock Hudson get beaten to a pulp. And finally he is beaten, and he's laying, he's crumpled, he's in the corner. The guy looks at him and walks away from him. We don't like that in America. That that happened. Elizabeth Taylor walks over to him, and she gets down on her knees, and she looks at him. She said, you never stood taller.

Yeah, girl.

That line is so informative to me as a young man that he was who he needed to be.

Yes.

I find myself going, why have I tried so hard to be in a place where I could fail so miserably in front of so many people?

It's truly incredible.

So here I am again. But I have a movie. And I may be up against the wall, but I have one thing that I know. I give this movie freely in my own mind to people, because I know this is the kind kind of movie I wanted to watch.

Fuck, yeah.

It's the kind of a movie that I needed to see.

Well, you know, I actually hate learning about your journey on this because my irresistible fantasy is, I will be done. I've accomplished what I needed to accomplish. It's time to rest. It's time to stop trying to succeed and trying to be great. The weight of that will disappear. And then another voice is like, well, then what's the fucking point? And you're demonstrating, no, you keep fighting. Forget the fucking finish line. If you're here, you keep at it. It's wildly inspiring.

You might as well be my horse whisperer, because I'm thinking the same thing. When I get this fourth one done, it's finally time. I need to go find a beach and an umbrella and then go see some solar eclipse somewhere and then drift over and see a Kentucky derby one time. And I have to check in with the fun stuff a little bit. I'd like to do that, and I think I will, but I will never give up my work until I realize it doesn't matter to me anymore.

Right, but the story of your life at 69, you've taken on probably the biggest battle of your life, which is just fucking wild.

You frame it really well.

I dig it.

It's really cool.

It's really admirable.

Well, what happens is it's a UFO moment. I desperately hope I never see one, because what the fuck do you do when you've seen one? You can't not see it anymore.

You can't unsee it.

So when you tell your friends, all you're hearing is poor Kevin.

He didn't like coke in the eighties.

But apparently he talked to me all day today about how he saw it. He came over the thing, and he knows people aren't going to believe him, but he said he saw them. There was four of them, and one came to him within inches and then blew in his face. And so what happens is, if you've seen one, you can't walk it back.

Now you got to get on the shelf.

What happens is, I've kind of seen my UFO. I made up my mind it was going to take anybody else down but me. And so I go.

I've heard many great things about you from mutual friends, and it's been a delight to meet you. So thanks so much for giving us so much of your time. I hope everyone checks out. Horizon in american saga, chapter one and two. The first one is out June 28. That's part one. And then you'll be running on August 16 to see part two. I myself cannot wait to see the conclusion. Well, a midway, chapter two in this great saga. Thank you so much for coming. This has been great.

Thank you.

Stick around for the fact check because they're human. They make lots of mistakes. Do you like corned beef and pastrami?

I don't know.

You don't know?

I don't think I've had it.

Really?

Yeah. Yes. But that's funny that you bring it up, because Callie and Max went to Langer's last weekend.

That's what this is.

Wow.

And you've never had langers? Want a little bite?

Yeah. What is it? It's just beef, right? Why is it called corned beef?

I don't know.

I think it's bad branding to call it corned beef, if I'm being honest, you know. Mmm.

Large grains of rock salt or corns of salt that are used to cure the meat. Mmm.

It's nice.

Good. Right? Now you want to try pastrami? That was corned beef.

Oh, they're different.

Yeah.

Yeah. I like pastrami better, I think.

Okay, hold on. Let me get this taste.

Yeah. Clear your palate.

Mm hmm. Ready? I'm not really tasting a dip.

That wasn't a great. None of these pieces of pastrami I put in this thing were the good pieces. I ate those yesterday.

Pastrami is a seasoning, right?

Yeah. They're both like, I think they're the same probably cut of meat, but they're prepared different ways. And. Yeah, it's a unique seasoning.

Yeah. They need a rebrand. I mean, they don't because they're classic and it's working. But I always thought pastrami was a type of meat.

Okay. Like a cut.

Mm hmm.

Uh huh.

And corned beef was a type of meat. And the corned beef one had something to do with corn, and I had no interest in that.

Not that you don't like corn, but not in your meat.

I'll say it. I don't love corn. It's in my teeth.

Okay.

How have you adjusted to the time?

All in all, I have to say it's not bad. Yesterday, pretty drowsy again, as we just talked about, I got a humongous platter of langers and just totally indulged myself. I had this platter and meat, and then I had the sprint race, MotoGP sprint race on my DVR and the race race. So back to back races while it's just pounding corned beef and pastrami. And then very drowsy. Monica. Drowsy.

That sounds like a recipe for drows.

And on day one, back to no DC's.

Oh, my God.

So I didn't have, like, my. Cause I can't drink a cup of coffee at four. I'll be fucked. But I can sneak into DC for just a little pick me up that was off the table.

Okay.

So I was nervous about the show we attended last night.

Yeah, we'll talk about that.

Cause I was like, what was up so early and then was not on DC's in the afternoon?

What's happening with DC's? Why are you removing them from the table? Aspartame.

Well, two things happened. One was I had a day where I drank. I mean, fucking 100. I don't know. It was the day went to monster jam and I had drinking a bunch in the day. And then I got there and I was just slugging them, and then I had, like, a real intense psoriasis y episode.

Okay.

And so I was like, oh, man, what the fuck? And the only thing I could point to is, like, I had 100 and I've never tried stopping. I can't get my hands on this psoriasis thing. Everything else good, you know, with the diet. The joints are good. Whatever. So I was, like, interesting. Real big flare up right after that. So that was the kernel that was in my head. But then by accident one day, I, like, had my morning coffee. We weren't recording. The day got completely taken away, and all of a sudden, it was, like, four. And I hadn't had one, nor had I had a second coffee, and I was like, oh, my God. I got to seize this opportunity to dial back my caffeine yesterday back to zero today, day two.

All right. And you don't think instead of just maybe doing, like, three as opposed to 100, like, instead of doing zero, you could do three?

Yes, but you know me so well.

I do.

I can do zero quite easily.

Yeah.

I cannot do one.

You're right.

One is way harder than zero.

It's asking too much.

It's just not. It's not a great for my disposition.

Yeah.

It's like sugar. It's so easy for me to not eat sugar as of just a policy.

Yeah.

As opposed to eat sugar on the weekends.

Do you feel like you're. I don't feel like you're a very big sugar boy. You're not a cookie boy.

Oh, man, if there weren't gluten in. I love cookies. Chips ahoy, oreos. When Nate and I lived together, we were in this constant cycle of, like, we'd eat Oreos every night until we were finally exhausted of them, and we'd switch to chip Ahoy's palate cleanser, run those into the ground for, like, three weeks. But I'm talking every night and eight night, we get on the couch with our little glasses of milk and turn.

You've grown. Like, I mean, you have to be aware that that was a long time ago, but I was a cookie boy since I. Okay, I won't take away the title. Okay, you were a cookie boy. But since I've known you. I've known you before you went gluten free.

Yes, yes.

I've never known you to be, like. Like, a massive consumer of sugar.

I'm not. And not sugar. Like, I don't fuck with sour patch kids and candies.

Yeah.

But I do love a chocolate candy bar. I love a molten lava cake. You know how I feel about a blizzard.

And you've seen me and a blueberry donut.

Oh, yes, a footer. And you've seen me in action at a Dairy Queen.

Yeah.

So, you know, when I do eat sugar, I guess it's pedal to the metal.

To me. That's not sugar. That's like Dairy Queen. Like it's a thing that clicks in your head of, I can't get this very often, so I have to get everything. But to me that's separate from sugar. You could have sugar right now. Like, you could have it all the time and you don't.

Right. But when I have it, I want it.

Okay.

And when I don't have it, I don't want it.

I get it.

You know, it's like on day one of any trip to Austin, I go to DQ. And then the next day at like seven, I start thinking like, oh, yeah, right. We're going to dairy Queen again. And then I just do that every single night while I'm there. And then, you know, I get. Get two things. And once in a while, you know? You've ever seen me get after the oreos? Cause when I do it, it's a full row.

Yeah.

We go like, yeah, we're doing this and we're gonna do a full row.

Sure. Again, tell me. No, I can't. Because you're right. And I think you're smart because you know yourself and I. I'm asking you to be someone you're not by asking you to do two or five.

Yeah.

Instead of the whole box. And it's good that you know you can't do that.

Yeah. It's just. And let's say I could. It would require so much willpower that it'd be uncomfortable.

Right. No, I've seen this.

You drink two or three glasses of wine and you're fine. You're not like, you're not slaying the dragon to resist the fourth.

I'm not.

I am.

I know.

I want the fourth worse than I wanted the third. And I want the fifth worse than I wanted the fourth.

Yeah, I know. That part's really interesting. Cause for me it's the first. That's what I struggle with, is I need the first one. But once I have the first one, I've, like, I've done it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel calm. I often will get a second one. And I guess the third one depends on what kind of conversation is happening.

Right. Right. If you're gonna enter the zone.

Yeah. Or if it's like we're really in it and we're gonna. We want to be here for another hour and a half, then I'll. I'll do that. It's not the alcohol that's keeping me there. I guess.

Yeah. You get, say I get less satiated the more I do.

I know.

It's so I guess if I were you, that would be very hard to not just comprehend, but almost believe.

No, I believe it. And I believe it also because I have seen it in other people, too. Right? And I also have been with people who I can see the struggle of. Do I shouldn't get another one? Should I get another one? I can see, and it is taking up all of the brain space.

It's exhausting.

They can't even be present.

Right? Because, listen, I have done this. It's not like I'm the type of alcoholic that 100% of the time I drank, I drank a fifth in a case. There were times where, like, I relapsed with one week left of without a paddle. And I'm like, okay, I have to drink every night, but I have to drink in a way that I don't fuck up the next day. So I was, like, allowed to have two glasses of wine in my apartment.

Oh.

And so that for a week. But it's not a win. It's like, it's such a battle. Like, glasses one and two are fine, and then the. Then I'm in the cage with the tiger, battling not to have a third and stay up later and be fucked for work, right? And then at the end of the week, I'm smoking meth out of a broken light bulb in my apartment, and I take nine hits of ecstasy within two minutes.

You don't have to convince, convinced me that you're an addict. Oh, I believe it. I've seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it. But, and I, and I apologize that I'm. I've asked you to try to someone you're not.

You don't need to apologize.

But I do. To anyone who.

The only thing that's triggering to me is, is actually the wordage of, like, why don't you just.

Exactly.

It's so loaded to me.

I get it.

Like, it's nothing. Like, why don't you just do this simple thing?

I know, but when you're not in it, that's how it feels. Like, well, why don't you just do this? That's what I do. It's easy. But, of course, it's a different brain chemistry, and it's.

I feel that way, too. I don't think I vocalize it, but it's like, why don't you just journal and work out for an hour and a half a day? To anyone, that's, like, struggling, right? But I know that that's not on the table for people, but for me, it's as obvious as that, it's like.

Well, I think it's okay advice, but.

If I said, why don't you just. That's the.

Sure. Why don't you just distract?

It's basically like you're lazy that you're not doing. This is so simple. Why don't you just make a gratitude list every day journal and work out for an hour?

Right?

I mean, I think you would feel a little like weirdly judged in the layout of that.

I feel judged, but I think I would also, that one feels slightly different to me because it's the specific protocol that works for you and it's like assuming that that works for everyone, whereas like moderation for most.

Well, the 1 hour exercise per the England's NHS 1 hour.

But hour and a half journal gratitude list is specifically your concoction.

Yes, but the workout for sure, that's not anyone's opinion.

I agree.

That's a better antidote to mild depression than antidepressants.

Except not when you're like, I was working out, I was walking every day for two weeks and I was like, I'm not feeling it. That is how I knew, oh, I do need to adjust. Right, because these other things aren't working anymore.

Yes, but I recognize that for whatever reason, that kind of routine that I can do obviously is easier for me. I mean, I'm not a hero now. Again, I remember when I first wanted to start working now and it was the third glass of wine battle. Like, okay, I said I was going to the gym on Tuesdays, Thursdays and whatever, and Tuesday comes and literally I'm sitting in my apartment for an hour trying to talk myself into it. And then I came up with the hack of like, okay, really, all I have to do is put on my workout gear and drive to the gym. Anyone could do that. And then you're allowed to turn around when you get there. Yeah, but once I was there, I always did it. But I did have to trick myself along the way. I don't know.

Yeah.

Wow, that was a really great little detour. So the show last night.

Oh, yeah. So we went to the Reefer Madness premiere, the stage production.

Stage production for people don't know, 1930s, like scare tactic, government film, Reefer Madness, it was like a news release show and was warning people the evils of marijuana. And if you smoked it once, you'd go crazy and you'd like jazz music and you'd get pregnant, blah, blah, blah. And then that became a fun thing. People used to watch and get stoned too. Kind of like Rocky Horror picture show.

Right.

Then there was a musical made out of that that started in LA, then it went to Broadway. And then Kristen was in this.

Yes.

And they were supposed to open two days after 911, so it didn't happen. They were starting on Broadway.

I thought she. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I thought she was in it on Broadway.

Well, but it didn't happen. Cause of 911.

They were like, it never happened. Oh.

Like all of Broadway shut down and then it didn't.

Got it. But was she in the movie?

So then they made a movie of that that Kristen was in.

Okay, got it.

And now it's back as a musical once again. And hopefully it'll end up on Broadway. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Kristen's a producer on it.

Yeah.

And so you and I went.

Yes, it was vip.

Very, very interesting Portuguese. That's what I was calling the people in the vip section at Taylor Swift. Very interesting Portuguese.

That's great.

Okay, so we see each other at the entrance. We talk for quite a while up there.

Yeah.

Then we go and we see the show. That's another couple hours.

Yeah.

And then I'm saying goodbye to you and I go, oh, Monica doesn't have pants on.

I was wearing. I was not wearing pants, but I was wearing like a. Basically like mini shorts. But there weren't really many. Like, they were basically like a diap.

They were a dipe. They were silk Dior. Dipe.

Yeah. And a blazer and tights. So I was covered.

Right, right, right. But it was very funny when I stepped up at the end to chat with you as you were about to go.

Yeah.

And then I was like, oh, Jesus, Monica's not wearing.

Did you think maybe I lost my pants in the middle?

Yeah, something happened to her slacks during the performance. She must have spilled some pastrami on them or something and had to quickly get them in cold water.

Uh huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we. We went super fun. It was super fun. It's very campy and funny and it's.

A scene and you were triggered because you were at a table with all Indians.

I wasn't gonna bring it up, but I'm glad you did.

Yeah. I love that boy so much, Karen. Yeah.

Yeah. He's incredible.

My God, I love him. He is sweetest.

You know, I've known Karen since UCB.

Oh, really?

We did UCB at the same time. We were all in groups and his partner is really awesome, too. And then there was another indian man there and. Yeah, it was racist.

Uh huh.

And then Kristen felt guilty, so she tried to reverse racism me and say I was racist for. For calling it out.

Right. You're supposed to be colorblind.

I guess it was funny, though.

If you didn't know any. Anyone in the mix.

Yeah.

And you walked by that table, you'd go, oh, this family's here 100%.

I was like, they think we're all.

Together, but kind of flattering is Karin is what a good family member to have.

That's what white people say to make themselves feel better.

Right.

But it is kind of funny because that is true. Right. Like, you would. Anyone would think that. I would think that.

No.

And then, well, you would think they.

Were together, whether they were all friends from college or they were family members. But you wouldn't think, oh, there's four random indian folks seated together, because that would be segregation. Which it was. But I don't. I think it was inadvertent segregation. I don't think anyone thought, like, oh, yeah, they're all indian. Stick them together.

Well, we were an unbeatable table.

You guys would have fucked everyone up, I think, if there had been any kind of test of connections.

Oh, can I talk to you about something important?

Yeah.

About connections.

Oh, that was a way to deliver.

But let's see her. Yeah. It's been brewing.

Oh, wow.

For, like, three days.

Oh, wow.

I'm sad about something.

What?

I feel like now, when you have made mistakes, you don't send it in.

But I say it. I come on and say it.

I know.

Can you even send your.

Of course.

Oh, you can?

Yeah. I mean, I do. Like, if mine is a big old mess, I still send it.

I send it if it's six and I get it. If you run. Oh, you can?

Yes.

Literally, I was like, when you run out and it's like, maybe next time. I don't even think there's anything to say.

I see.

So then I quickly go onto the thread and own up to the fact that I didn't get it entirely.

You do own up. I'm not saying you're, like, hiding it, because originally, when we first started playing, you would send not getting it. And then, like, early days, but not getting it.

Meaning I would say in the results.

Or I would send in the results.

Yeah.

And sometimes you wouldn't have got it at all.

Oh, so you're saying I have sent in.

You have.

Oh, I thought, I have sent in the time. Whatever I get, we're on the same page.

Sure. So that. Has that happened? And I was always very proud that you said, especially when you first joined the group.

Yeah. Yeah.

I had a feeling that you weren't going to send it if you didn't get it, and then you did. And I was happy about that.

Right.

Because that means we all are aware that we're on the same level and we're fine to show when we just.

Can'T get it yet. Safe. Safe space fail.

That's right.

Yeah.

So I got worried some days ago.

That's truly a confusion, because, again, I do immediately go on and go. I couldn't.

I know.

So I'm not hiding it.

All right, this is good to clear.

But I think way more important than that was the fact that you and I were soul sisters reversed. I don't think that's happened yet. Now I can tell I can own up to a shortcoming I have, which is once I fuck up, once, I almost don't care, and then I just am very reckless. I don't try to salvage it much.

That's fine.

Like I care when it's gonna be perfect. Well, in order. I care the most if I get purple first, then blue, then green, then.

Yellow, which we call a reverse back, which our listeners, our longtime listeners will know. That's a word we invented here.

Yes. Which was some kind of curious, but yet to be defined sexual act. We just knew it sounded sexual, but.

We didn't know what it was. But now we've coined getting reverse order on connections.

So.

Getting purple hardest, blue, second hardest, green, yellow. A reverse back.

Right. Do you hold off if you then see the easy one before guessing?

Yes.

Well, that's exactly how I. My method is to go on. I click the four easiest ones. Now I'm only looking at twelve. Then I try to find the next, and then I whittle that down to the remaining eight. But then once I get that and I. And I submit it and it's like fucking green. I'm so pissed. So already level one of me starting to care less.

That's silly.

I know, but I'm owning this.

And so it's still good if you don't get a reverse back. Because we also tried to get uni peas, which means each one of us in the group has a different order. That's also very exciting for us.

Yes. Yeah. Once it. Once I get the error and I'm only. And it's high likelihood because I'm only going for purple.

Yeah. I like a reverse back.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna act like I don't. That's my goal.

Yes.

But I'm still very happy. If I get it, no mistakes.

Me, too. I'm kind of, like, detailing the levels of my interest and dedication to it. If I get purple first, I'm fighting to the end now. But even if I get blue first now, at least it shifts to, well, I gotta get out of this thing perfectly.

Right.

But if I make a mistake on the first one going for purple, I almost don't wanna play anymore.

Yeah.

Cause today, and I get really reckless.

There was a ten. Yes. Literally. Rob was a clue.

Yeah.

And I got a little excited.

I did say, if the universe says, why on there?

That's obvious.

It's done.

Yeah.

Then we know, because it doesn't mean anything. Wabi. There's no.

What?

Wasabi, but.

Well, it have to be w a b. But it'd have to be. What's the name for that? When you spell a word differently, but it makes the same sound.

And. Hominin.

Hominin. So it could be a homonym for japanese food. So it could be wabi. Although wabi sabi is not japanese.

Okay. It's the first. It's a hominin for the first part of any asian phrase. I don't know. She's cheeky. She can.

If anyone could figure it out, it'd be her.

Yeah. Okay. I did something yesterday before reefer madness. I went to this event. It was sort of a marketing event, but then they had panels and speaking, and I got to interview Jason Sudeikis.

Yes. How long was the interview?

45.

And did you come in with a bunch of set questions?

I did.

Okay.

We barely. We got to like one of them. A few. Cause we just started chatting.

Lovely.

And it was really fun. And I really liked him.

Good. Yeah, he's very charming.

He said he sends his love to you and Kristen.

Ah, lovely.

And he said he hadn't seen you in a really long time.

Very long time. Very charming. Yeah.

And the day before, I thought it was in Palm Springs.

Yes, you did. That's what you had told me the first time.

Right. Turns out it was in Carlsbad, which is San Diego. That was a. Yikes. And I had already invited Jess, and I said, oh, you know, I have this thing tomorrow. It's in Palm Springs. And he was like. He's like, do you want me to go with you? So it was unethical.

Well, it's just a big bait and switch.

It was. And I felt unethical once I learned it was in San Diego. And I didn't tell him, but this all happened very fast. It was the day before. He said, do you want me to go with you? And I said, yes. And then he came with me, and it was so fun.

How far. How long was the drive?

Two and a half hours.

It wasn't too terrible because you left at rush hour.

Yeah, we left it the worst timing possible. Yeah, but it was only two and a half hours and then two and a half hours back.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, it wasn't bad. Well, we were in the hove.

Yeah.

Which was fun.

I heard motherfuckers saying, they made hove. I heard hove say, okay, then make a. Another hove.

I like Jay Z.

Me too.

Listen to some. We listen to music. Oh, on the way he said it.

Like that was like the most novel thing. You know, we rolled the windows down a little bit for a portion.

Yeah, that did happen. And he put his hand out and I said, put it back in because I thought maybe he would get his hand off.

Yeah. If anyone might lose an arm.

Exactly. Yeah. Music is a joke between Jess and I. Cuz he picks up from the airport a lot too, which is. Is very nice. And he always says, we'll play music as an incentive.

Carrot.

Yeah. Speaking of carrot, the restaurant had a steakhouse which we went to, and it served one carrot.

Oh, really? One enormous carrot?

Yes. Anyway, so that was a fun little 24 hours adventure.

Yeah.

Okay, now this is for Kevin Costner, the Koss. Okay, I have a couple facts. You said that California would send oranges to people on the east to get people to try.

Yeah, yeah. Train cars full.

So that made me want to look up state fruits.

Oh, interesting segue.

I'm gonna read some. This is a list.

Okay.

If you want to guess, feel free.

I only know three.

Okay. Alabama.

Okay. Alabama. Fruit. Not vegetable.

Fruit.

Fruit. Alabama's fruit. The pineapple.

No way.

That was a huge swing.

BlackBerry.

Weird.

Okay. Arkansas. Ooh, you're not gonna like the answer.

Apricots.

Nope. Vine ripe. Pink. Tomato.

I guess they say it's a fruit.

They do. They do say that.

Florida, by the way, so specific. Vine ripened.

Pink.

Pink. Come on, guys.

It's a pretty looking tomato.

I bet it is.

Okay, Florida orange. Yes.

Georgia peaches.

That's next. Oh, look how pretty. Oh, Idaho.

We can't say corn. No, it's gonna be a berry or something.

Yep.

Blueberry.

Close.

Huckleberry.

Yes.

Huckleberry pie.

What is a huckleberry?

It looks like a kind of.

It looks like a blueberry on this picture.

Oh, it does. Oh, I was thinking it looked more like a raspberry or boozenberry or boozen buddies is Michigan cherry? God, I hope.

Hold on. Illinois gold rush apple. Kentucky.

I love how specific these are. Half eaten. Gold rush apple. Rush apple.

Kentucky's a BlackBerry. Louisiana. Louisiana strawberry.

Ooh.

Maine wild blueberry.

Yeah, great pick. Maine.

Massachusetts cranberry.

Really quick. You know, I think a lot of this does reflect what order they join the union. Like, if you're Maine, you're the first one in. Or you get to pick. Or Connecticut or whatever. Yeah. You grabbed blueberry or something.

I don't think. Isn't it what grows there?

Yeah, but these things grow everywhere. So these apples grow in probably 15 states. Michigan's got a big apple industry, but if they see lady bird or Lady Smith, little lady pink ladies already taken and they can't take it. There is an available list.

But I don't think the peaches in other areas are as good as in Georgia.

I don't even know if they make the best peaches, but they definitely claimed it first.

They make the best.

Well, I think California makes the best of everything. It does.

I do think.

No, it really does. I remember my brother's father in law owned grocery stores and he would go to these grocer conventions once a year. And he said that at these grocer conventions, 49 states. States would make up about half of the haul. And then just California was always half the hall.

Well, do you remember when we were in India and we were at the market and nuts, most of the nuts came from California.

We crank out the food from the. I'm proud of San Joaquin Valley. Yeah.

Okay. Minnesota. Honeycrisp apple. Missouri. Norton Cynthia grape. Nope. Norton Cynthiana grape. New Hampshire pumpkin. That's cool.

It is, but not very appetizing.

But they thought outside the box.

Yeah.

New Jersey again.

Fruit pumpkin.

I guess so. New Jersey. Highbush blueberry. New York.

They had to say high bush blueberry because Maine already said blueberry.

But guess who. Okay, New York. Are you reading the same list? No, I'm not reading the.

Rob's having impulse control today.

But he is. Right.

Just a general apple.

They got the original apple, right.

That's why they call it the Big Apple.

Exactly.

I get. I just learned that, though.

Just as you were saying it.

Yeah.

Okay. North Carolina. Ooh, you're not gonna like this. Cherry scuppernong grape. North Dakota. Chokecherry. Ohio tomato. Regular tomato.

Sorry, tomato. Ohio. Although, look, they just a good one. They were early on, too, so they were able to just say tomato.

They. What if they didn't say steakhouse for us, thinking tomatoes are fruits, because I still have a very hard time with that.

What, you think that's worse than pumpkins? Pumpkin is like a fucking tuber.

I know, but a pumpkin I could see in a salad more than a. I mean. Whoa. Opposite, opposite. Sorry. A tomato I can see in a salad, a vegetable salad much more than a pumpkin.

Let's just say that all fruits universally, I think this would be the best criteria to define a fruit is if you would want them on a hot summer day. I agree. Like a fresh plate of. Blank. This fruit. A fresh plate of pumpkin on a hot summer's day. No fucking way.

I love that. Okay. Oklahoma strawberry regs. That's cool. Oregon Pearl.

Did you skip Michigan?

It's not on here. It might be. It might be.

Well, they're not going alphabetical.

Rhode Island. Rhode island, greening apple. South Carolina peach.

Wait, there you go. Double up. Mco.

Oh, no. Now I don't touch this list because now it's saying Tennessee's tomato. Also no.

Tennessee.

Texas. Texas red grapefruit. Hold on. Let me see if Michigan's on here. That's not on here.

Oh, my God. What a shitty list. How dare they leave out Michigan?

Michigan fruit. I'm going to type it.

12Th most populous state.

Michigan. It doesn't have a official fruit. Apples, cherries and raspberries. Oh, my.

Oh, my. Is not a fruit.

You never heard of it? Okay.

I think fresh plate of. Oh, my. No, no. Let's just wrap it up. Are there any big here? I know he'll stall him for a second. Okay.

I'm flushed. Another list.

Oh, okay. Well, I guess we'll resume afterwards.

Yeah, we can pause for. We're not gonna spoil, but we did Easter egg. Just interview someone who's now at the top of the best boy list. I mean, like, maybe past Jimmy. Sorry.

Yeah. Might have flown by.

Shit.

It might be the number one best boy we've ever interviewed.

Good thing we have an extra.

Yeah. It won't look like him. Here's a clue. It doesn't look anything. Anything like Jimmy Kimmel.

No, that's right.

But you were saying, BTS. We had to pause because we were going long and we had a guess. But now we're back.

Now we're back and you have another list. And now I have another list. And so Kevin said, finished with engines, and it's a naval term. And he was talking about that it was a movie. And that made me want to look up. What are some military sayings that have become popularized.

Oh, great.

Okay. Roger that.

Mmm.

Roger that. Rather than yes. Under the old NATO phonetic Alphabet, the letter R was pronounced Roger. On the radio, radio operators would say Roger to mean that a message had been properly received. The meaning involved, until Roger meant yes. Today, the NATO phonetic Alphabet says Romeo in place of R, but Roger is still used to mean a message was received.

I'm gonna start saying Romeo that.

Okay.

To update, updated.

Also, bite the bullet.

Okay. Why would you bite a bullet?

Fighters on both sides of the American Civil War used the term bite the bullet, but it appears they may have stolen it from the british. British army. Captain Francis Grose published the book Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue in 1811 and used chew the bullet to explain how proud soldiers stayed silent while being whipped.

Oh, wow.

Yikes.

Okay, so time to put the thing in your mouth and get your whipping.

Yep. To the wall. Also, I know this one going balls out. Okay.

But even deeper. Cause it's. That's even not military. And I only know this because I toured Jay Leno's garage, and he collects steam engines.

Okay.

And steam engines would have these set of weighted balls that were on little pistons, and they laid flat. But as the steam gained momentum, it spun it, and then when it lifted through centrifugal force, the balls directly out horizontally. Balls out. That was full throttle.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. It says, for military aviation, where pilots would need to get their aircraft flying as fast as possible, their control levers had balls on the end. So this is a little different. Pushing the accelerator all the way out. Balls out would put the ball of the lever against the firewall in the cockpit. Balls to the wall. When a pilot really needed to zoom away, they'd also push the control stick all the way forward, sending it into a dive. Obviously, this would put the ball of the control stick all the way out from the pilot and against the firewall.

Very phallic experience.

Big time. Bought the farm. Oh, it means to die.

I know that part. But why?

Thought to date back to 1950s jet pilots, there was no clear agreement on exactly how the phrase came about. It could be from war widows being able to pay off the family farm with life insurance payments, or farmers paying off their farms with the damaged payout they'd received when a pilot crashed on their land. Or the pilots who wanted to buy a farm after they retired being said to, quote, buy the farm early when they died.

The first one feels most plausible to me.

Ooh. Caught a lot of flak.

Mm hmm.

Flak is actually an acronym for german air Defense Cannons. The Germans called the guns boy. No way.

Okay. Not even gonna try?

Okay, I can try. Fly garab work. Flygre means flyer, abwer abuer means defense, and kenonen means cannon. Airmen in World war two would have to fly through dangerous clouds of shrapnel created by flak. The phrase progressed in meaning until it became equated with abusive criticism. That's cool.

Had you read catch 22, which you haven't, you would be super aware of flak. It's all over that book.

Like, in the german way.

He was a gunner on a plane in world War two, constantly flying through flack, foo bar.

Snafu, Tarfu.

Mm hmm.

We've talked about snafu. I think system's normal.

All fucked up.

Uh huh. All three words are acronyms. FUBAR stands for fucked up beyond all recognition.

Love it.

Snafu is situation normal, all fucked up. And Tarfu is. Things are really fucked up.

You know? One that I learned while in Africa with the dude that was an active Green beret is. They would say things were a real soup sandwich. You can't. It's impossible to eat.

Too hard to eat it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I really like that one. Well, this is a fucking soup sandwich.

Okay. I like this. Geronimo. Geronimo is yelled by jumpers leaping from a great height, but it has military origins. Paratroopers. With the original test platoon at Fort Benning, Georgia, ding, ding, ding. Yelled the name of the famous native american chief on their first mass jump. The exclamation became part of airborne culture, and the battalion adopted it as their motto. Okay, we know in the trenches. That's obvious. Got your six?

Mm hmm.

Military members commonly describe direction using the hours of a clock. Whichever direction the vehicle, unit, or individual is moving is the 12:00 position. So the 06:00 position is to the rear. Got your six. And the related watch your six comes from service members telling each other that the rear is covered or that they need to watch out for enemy attacking from behind. No man's land was widely used by soldiers to describe. Describe the area between opposing armies in their trenches in World War one. It was then morphed to describe any area that it was dangerous to stray into or even topics of conversation that could anger another speaker. Nuclear option. That's obvious. On the double. Anyone who has run into a military formation will recognize the background of. On the double quick time is a standard marching pace for troops, and double time is twice that pace, meaning the service member is running, doing something. On the double, is moving at twice the normal speed while completing the task. Oh, okay. Screw the pooch.

Oh, here we go.

Screw the pooch was originally an even racier phrase. Fuck the dog. It meant to loaf around or procrastinate. However, by 1962, it was also being used to mean that a person had bungled something.

Bungled.

Now it was more commonly used with the latter definition.

Bungle's a great word. Yeah, I don't use that enough. Maybe that'll be my new overindex.

Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. That's all for that list.

That was a fun list.

I know.

You did not bungle it.

Thank you. I feel like I learned something. He mentioned Ahab. So son of success for was this. I said I bungled. That bungled app was the son and successor of King Omri. Do you know it?

Because he's referring to the lead character in Moby Dick. That's what the reference is about. A man who becomes crazed and obsessed with killing, killing this whale.

Okay.

And brings people down in his pursuit of that.

Well, he was the son and successor of King Omri and the husband of Jezebel of Sidon, according to the Hebrew Bible. He was widely criticized for causing, quote, moral decline in Israel, according to the Yahwehs. And he was talking about moral decline when he was talking about this. So I'm not sure.

Oh, I am, because I heard him give the exact. This one happened. Actually, no, he gave the exact same analogy in a different interview, talking about Ahab from Moby Dick, who was named after this.

Okay. Yeah. So it's all about. It's the same thing.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

But he's been saying to people, basically, horizon is not my Moby Dick.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay, well, that's it.

That's everything. What a blessing he was.

Yeah. Legends are cool.

Legends are legends for a reason. Legends be legending. Similar to your pants. I just realized your whole shirt is ripped off in your armpit.

This has a rip. My pants are not ripped.

Okay, great.

Phew. I thought you were telling me they were all ripped.

Well, as much shopping you do, it's shocking that you are in tattered clothes.

This is vintage. It's a look.

Was that intentionally put in that huge hole?

No, but vintage items get holes. Cause they're old.

Yeah. My shirt that I'm currently wearing is my very favorite velvet by Graham and whoever. They made a cut that they don't make anymore, that the side is cut like this. And I only have. I have one left. And I wear this frequently. And in the back, just below the label, it's starting to get real cheeseclothy.

But it's okay. I think it's cool to have holes like I have.

I had a shirt that was my favorite shirt from high school. It was my ex girlfriend Stephanie's junior high athletic shirt. You would be hard pressed to find a photo of me between 92 and 96 where I'm not wearing that shirt.

Have we said bye yet?

Are you about to notice something new in the room?

No, I just. I thought we said bye. And I didn't know if we were still recording. We were just talking.

Oh, no, we hadn't said bye. You said that was it.

Oh, sure.

And then you did a. Well, you did maybe, like, a cue for me to say goodbye. But then I told you about a t shirt. Well, no.

You saw my hole.

Yes, exactly. You were yawning and stretching, and then you had this pancake size hole.

It is large.

Yeah, it's a very big hole. And again, I saw it at the very end.

Even is small, according to the chocolate.

We had from David Sedaris. All right, love.